6 ms·

Vox: Alpha open-source browser engine in V

60 points by freediver 3y ago

thewafflelord 3y ago
Comparing Browser speed with JS disabled is like comparing car speed without tyres.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Scaevolus 3y ago
  V's main draw is absurd vaporware claims.
  - karmakaze 3y ago
    > Vox: Upcoming open-source... So no source yet, only the HN demo render. I might pay attention when the open source is published and can at least pass Acid3 tests and works on all the site I visit, not only the simplest one.
  - pityJuke 3y ago
    It is surprising the amount of claims (well, future promises) on here for a project that is clearly getting off the ground. Compare it to Ladybird's [0], where it is nice and simple. They're building a browser, but they're not ready yet. There's no claims as to the future. It should already be cool enough that you're building a brand new web engine. There is no need for claims about performance, ad blocking or vertical tabs, when you're nowhere near there. [0]: https://ladybird.dev/ https://ladybird.dev/
- Y_Y 3y ago
  What a beautiful car analogy. Anyway it uses V8 just like all the other Chrome-alikes, so it should have the same performance there.
  - freediver 3y ago
    > What a beautiful car analogy. Almost but not quite. Web worked just fine without JS and to some extent still does (this site for example). So a better analogy would be something cars were fine without, but now have it and it improves experience (and sometimes bloats it eg one more thing to break). Electric windows, seat heaters, GPS, come to mind.
    - debugnik 3y ago
      But you can drive on any road without those, while you simply can't use much of the web without JS. I don't think there's a good car analogy.
    - Y_Y 3y ago
      My comment may have been a little tongue-in-cheek reference to outdated /. humour. Anyway for the record Karl Benz first produced his Patent-Motorwagen in 1885 whereas the pneumatic tyre wasn't to be invented for another two years and even then in faraway Ireland. So in some some sense cars do predate tyres.
  - nkali 3y ago
    Things are more complicated than that, I'm afraid. Lots of CPU time (and browser complexity) is spent on DOM/CSSOM bindings and the way browser engine handles updates/redraws.
- ehsankia 3y ago
  Not only that, but from the screenshot of Hackernews (which itself is an extremely simple website), it seems like it can't even do very basic HTML/CSS rendering either yet. It probably doesn't even pass ACID 1.
  - rvz 3y ago
    My goodness, calm down. The author just said it is in 'alpha'. What did the author ever do to you?
    - klyrs 3y ago
      > What did the author ever do to you? Made incredible claims, did not fulfil them. Ergo, heightened scrutiny.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - ehsankia 3y ago
      But what's the point of posting numbers for it then? I can make you a browser engine that loads in 0ms by showing a blank page.
yboris 3y ago
Built in V: https://github.com/vlang/v https://github.com/vlang/v > [the V language is a] simple, fast, safe, compiled language for developing maintainable software. Compiles itself in <1s with zero library dependencies.
raquelmir 3y ago
So it's an another Chrome-based browser?
- garciasn 3y ago
  Not according to the link. But I didn’t look at the code.
  - pwg 3y ago
    Per the bottom of the article, there is not yet any code that anyone (besides the current author) can look at: > Source code release in 2024.
- ehsankia 3y ago
  It's not a browser, it's a browser engine. So it would be a replacement for Chrome's engine (Blink) or Firefox's (Quantum).
  - amedvednikov 3y ago
    It's going to be a browser engine and a browser.
iamthirsty 3y ago
> Using Hacker News as a test (JS disabled): 20x faster rendering than Chrome (3ms vs 60ms) 4x less RAM usage than FireFox 40% less CPU usage than FireFox I would hope that the browsers tested against also had JS disabled. Although regardless, I don't think it's an amazing comparison tool, being that most of the web uses JS.
- cornedor 3y ago
  > Although regardless, I don't think it's an amazing comparison tool, being that most of the web uses JS. Add to that that most features to render Hacker News correctly are not implemented.
jefftk 3y ago
Nice to see another browser engine project! For all the apparent diversity in full-featured browsers, right now they're all running on one of Gecko, WebKit, or Blink. And Blink started as a WebKit fork. If this succeeds we'll be up to four! (Possibly you could also count Flow, though I haven't heard anything from them recently.)
- calgarymicro 3y ago
  There's also SerenityOS LibWeb/Ladybird[0], which is very active, though I wouldn't say they've made it to being daily drivable yet. [0]https://ladybird.dev/ https://ladybird.dev/
hypeatei 3y ago
> source code releases in 2024 Can anyone from the Vox team provide a rough date?
munificent 3y ago
Looks [1] like it's created by Alexander Medvednikov, who is also the creator of V. I have no dog in this fight, but V and its author have a somewhat storied history because the language's documentation made very strong claims around performance, safety, and the state of the language that may or may not have reflected reality. Some previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20250990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20250990 https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23/ https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23/ https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-03/ https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-0... Again, I'm not taking a side one way or the other, nor am I endorsing any particular interpretation, but I think it's relevant history. [1]: https://github.com/vlang/vox-browser https://github.com/vlang/vox-browser
- lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
  I'd love it if we could have a single story that's even somewhat tangentially related to V not devolve into rehashing the past. Let it go.
  - debo_ 3y ago
    V is for Vendetta, I've been told.
  - nulld3v 3y ago
    I think if VLang was indeed stable or if it delivered on some of its promises it would be justified to stop nitpicking flaws. But the language unfortunately remains unstable to this day. There are memory leaks with very basic things (e.g. readline, reading from maps) that are still being fixed as recently as half a year ago: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/18009 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/18009, https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/19454 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/19454
    - 3y ago
Gualdrapo 3y ago
> A settings option to have vertical tabs. How come it's the browser engine who deals with that and not the browser itself?
- calgarymicro 3y ago
  They also say things like "Efficient built-in ad blocker Based on Ublock Origin" and "Keyboard navigation Vim bindings", so I think they're developing both a new browser and a new engine for the browser to use, and kind of conflating the two when discussing features on their home page.
gumballindie 3y ago
If this browser does what it claims it will spread like fire. Congrats on the initiative! Edit: Tried it in Proton on Linux. Renders 20x at least slower than any other browser.
Frajedo 3y ago
Won’t have a lot of Spanish users (Vox is a far right Spanish political group…)
- eggy 3y ago
  That would be ridiculous. Vox is Latin for "voice" and has been used widely for a lot more than your reference. I am fluent in Spanish and lived there in the late 80s, but I have been out of touch, so this is the first I've heard of it. People use the word 'trump' all the time. Context and intelligence are needed in discourse.
- smalu 3y ago
  And its also the name of American news site (vox.com), Polish furniture company (vox.pl)...for every major gtld, the vox.* is taken for something...Do not event start with the fruit nammed apple. Context is the King, like @eggy said.
cp9 3y ago
well, the V hello world example still leaks memory like a sieve so, that's probably bad news for a browser engine
pityJuke 3y ago
I wonder the developers' chat app from what feels like 5 years ago will ever come out [0]. (edit: it's 6 years, according to the HN thread I found it on! [1]). By the way, you should really close that Patreon (which in fairness isn't generating much income), considering Volt is clearly never coming out or being developed on, and you have another Patreon for your language! [0]: https://volt-app.com/ https://volt-app.com/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14778263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14778263
diimdeep 3y ago
Another laud marketing attempt in converting attention economy into donations. Deliver value first, then waste everybody time as it is probably will suck anyway.

60 points by freediver 3y ago

thewafflelord 3y ago

Comparing Browser speed with JS disabled is like comparing car speed without tyres.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Scaevolus 3y ago
V's main draw is absurd vaporware claims.
- karmakaze 3y ago
  > Vox: Upcoming open-source... So no source yet, only the HN demo render. I might pay attention when the open source is published and can at least pass Acid3 tests and works on all the site I visit, not only the simplest one.
- pityJuke 3y ago
  It is surprising the amount of claims (well, future promises) on here for a project that is clearly getting off the ground. Compare it to Ladybird's [0], where it is nice and simple. They're building a browser, but they're not ready yet. There's no claims as to the future. It should already be cool enough that you're building a brand new web engine. There is no need for claims about performance, ad blocking or vertical tabs, when you're nowhere near there. [0]: https://ladybird.dev/ https://ladybird.dev/
Y_Y 3y ago
What a beautiful car analogy. Anyway it uses V8 just like all the other Chrome-alikes, so it should have the same performance there.
- freediver 3y ago
  > What a beautiful car analogy. Almost but not quite. Web worked just fine without JS and to some extent still does (this site for example). So a better analogy would be something cars were fine without, but now have it and it improves experience (and sometimes bloats it eg one more thing to break). Electric windows, seat heaters, GPS, come to mind.
  - debugnik 3y ago
    But you can drive on any road without those, while you simply can't use much of the web without JS. I don't think there's a good car analogy.
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    My comment may have been a little tongue-in-cheek reference to outdated /. humour. Anyway for the record Karl Benz first produced his Patent-Motorwagen in 1885 whereas the pneumatic tyre wasn't to be invented for another two years and even then in faraway Ireland. So in some some sense cars do predate tyres.
- nkali 3y ago
  Things are more complicated than that, I'm afraid. Lots of CPU time (and browser complexity) is spent on DOM/CSSOM bindings and the way browser engine handles updates/redraws.
ehsankia 3y ago
Not only that, but from the screenshot of Hackernews (which itself is an extremely simple website), it seems like it can't even do very basic HTML/CSS rendering either yet. It probably doesn't even pass ACID 1.
- rvz 3y ago
  My goodness, calm down. The author just said it is in 'alpha'. What did the author ever do to you?
  - klyrs 3y ago
    > What did the author ever do to you? Made incredible claims, did not fulfil them. Ergo, heightened scrutiny.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - ehsankia 3y ago
    But what's the point of posting numbers for it then? I can make you a browser engine that loads in 0ms by showing a blank page.

yboris 3y ago

Built in V: https://github.com/vlang/v https://github.com/vlang/v > [the V language is a] simple, fast, safe, compiled language for developing maintainable software. Compiles itself in <1s with zero library dependencies.

raquelmir 3y ago

So it's an another Chrome-based browser?

garciasn 3y ago
Not according to the link. But I didn’t look at the code.
- pwg 3y ago
  Per the bottom of the article, there is not yet any code that anyone (besides the current author) can look at: > Source code release in 2024.
ehsankia 3y ago
It's not a browser, it's a browser engine. So it would be a replacement for Chrome's engine (Blink) or Firefox's (Quantum).
- amedvednikov 3y ago
  It's going to be a browser engine and a browser.

iamthirsty 3y ago

> Using Hacker News as a test (JS disabled): 20x faster rendering than Chrome (3ms vs 60ms) 4x less RAM usage than FireFox 40% less CPU usage than FireFox I would hope that the browsers tested against also had JS disabled. Although regardless, I don't think it's an amazing comparison tool, being that most of the web uses JS.

cornedor 3y ago
> Although regardless, I don't think it's an amazing comparison tool, being that most of the web uses JS. Add to that that most features to render Hacker News correctly are not implemented.

jefftk 3y ago

Nice to see another browser engine project! For all the apparent diversity in full-featured browsers, right now they're all running on one of Gecko, WebKit, or Blink. And Blink started as a WebKit fork. If this succeeds we'll be up to four! (Possibly you could also count Flow, though I haven't heard anything from them recently.)

calgarymicro 3y ago
There's also SerenityOS LibWeb/Ladybird[0], which is very active, though I wouldn't say they've made it to being daily drivable yet. [0]https://ladybird.dev/ https://ladybird.dev/

hypeatei 3y ago

> source code releases in 2024 Can anyone from the Vox team provide a rough date?

munificent 3y ago

Looks [1] like it's created by Alexander Medvednikov, who is also the creator of V. I have no dog in this fight, but V and its author have a somewhat storied history because the language's documentation made very strong claims around performance, safety, and the state of the language that may or may not have reflected reality. Some previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20250990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20250990 https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23/ https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23/ https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-03/ https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-0... Again, I'm not taking a side one way or the other, nor am I endorsing any particular interpretation, but I think it's relevant history. [1]: https://github.com/vlang/vox-browser https://github.com/vlang/vox-browser

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
I'd love it if we could have a single story that's even somewhat tangentially related to V not devolve into rehashing the past. Let it go.
- debo_ 3y ago
  V is for Vendetta, I've been told.
- nulld3v 3y ago
  I think if VLang was indeed stable or if it delivered on some of its promises it would be justified to stop nitpicking flaws. But the language unfortunately remains unstable to this day. There are memory leaks with very basic things (e.g. readline, reading from maps) that are still being fixed as recently as half a year ago: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/18009 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/18009, https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/19454 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/19454
  - 3y ago

Gualdrapo 3y ago

> A settings option to have vertical tabs. How come it's the browser engine who deals with that and not the browser itself?

calgarymicro 3y ago
They also say things like "Efficient built-in ad blocker Based on Ublock Origin" and "Keyboard navigation Vim bindings", so I think they're developing both a new browser and a new engine for the browser to use, and kind of conflating the two when discussing features on their home page.

gumballindie 3y ago

If this browser does what it claims it will spread like fire. Congrats on the initiative! Edit: Tried it in Proton on Linux. Renders 20x at least slower than any other browser.

Frajedo 3y ago

Won’t have a lot of Spanish users (Vox is a far right Spanish political group…)

eggy 3y ago
That would be ridiculous. Vox is Latin for "voice" and has been used widely for a lot more than your reference. I am fluent in Spanish and lived there in the late 80s, but I have been out of touch, so this is the first I've heard of it. People use the word 'trump' all the time. Context and intelligence are needed in discourse.
smalu 3y ago
And its also the name of American news site (vox.com), Polish furniture company (vox.pl)...for every major gtld, the vox.* is taken for something...Do not event start with the fruit nammed apple. Context is the King, like @eggy said.

cp9 3y ago

well, the V hello world example still leaks memory like a sieve so, that's probably bad news for a browser engine

pityJuke 3y ago

I wonder the developers' chat app from what feels like 5 years ago will ever come out [0]. (edit: it's 6 years, according to the HN thread I found it on! [1]). By the way, you should really close that Patreon (which in fairness isn't generating much income), considering Volt is clearly never coming out or being developed on, and you have another Patreon for your language! [0]: https://volt-app.com/ https://volt-app.com/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14778263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14778263

diimdeep 3y ago

Another laud marketing attempt in converting attention economy into donations. Deliver value first, then waste everybody time as it is probably will suck anyway.