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18 Minutes to Evacuate a Burning Plane: Success Story or Cautionary Tale?

24 points by ilamont 3y ago

gardenfelder 3y ago
https://archive.ph/j0mOe https://archive.ph/j0mOe
nostromo 3y ago
> In its certification test, Airbus was required to prove that its A350 aircraft can be evacuated in less than 90 seconds. I literally laughed out loud at this. People can't seem to orderly exit a plane under regular conditions, without panic, without smoke, without an incline. I'd love to see the videos of evacuations during the certification process. I also have to wonder if they have a representative group of body sizes, age, and physical ability in their tests.
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- tambour 3y ago
  Not the A350, but here's a clip of the A380's certification process in action: https://youtu.be/G_8hbsWKoOU?si=9y_8YaXSsLCbphxY https://youtu.be/G_8hbsWKoOU?si=9y_8YaXSsLCbphxY
  - avidiax 3y ago
    Now offer a randomly selected 10% of the passengers a $10,000 bonus if they exit in the first half of passengers, and another 10% a $500 bonus if they can get any piece of their luggage off with them. Tell the FA's that the captain will signal the evacuation, and then don't let him. Fill the cabin air with fake smoke, and have noise equal to one side of the engines running at go-around power outside the plane.
    - jiggawatts 3y ago
      Reminds me of Samsung proudly proclaiming that they tested their foldable OLED phone with a robot to thousands of open-close cycles… in a clean room, inside a dust-free glass enclosure. Now try… ten. Just ten open-close cycles after sitting down at the beach.
- owenversteeg 3y ago
  You may be surprised that under real world emergency conditions, people are actually able to evacuate in around that time. Half of the passengers of the recent Sukhoi 100 crash evacuated in 70 seconds, and that was even with many of them stopping to take baggage with them - a decision that condemned the rest to a fiery death. >I also have to wonder if they have a representative group of body sizes, age, and physical ability in their tests. They do indeed. They also have dimmed lights, randomly blocked doors, and debris strewn throughout the cabin.
interloxia 3y ago
I was pleased to hear, but a little surprised that, according to the article, the captain found some more passengers on a final sweep. It would be tempting not to take the risk. Short of asking a pilot how they could make a calculated risk, I found the following. The International Society of Air Safety (9.11) notes that there "when practical, the commander may decide to check the entire passenger cabin before leaving the aeroplane." The section also notes some potential disadvantages of the flight crew helping with the evacuation. https://www.isasi.org/Documents/Library/raes-emergency-evacuation-of-commercial-passenger-aeroplanes-paper-second-edition-june-2020.pdf https://www.isasi.org/Documents/Library/raes-emergency-evacu...
owenversteeg 3y ago
I don't care what excuses you make, eighteen minutes to evacuate a burning aircraft is completely unacceptable. There is a reason why 90 seconds to evacuate, with half the doors blocked, dimmed lighting and obstructions, is the law. I find the comments by the cabin crew union disturbing, that they "appear to perform their jobs perfectly". Three minutes to open doors is more than twice the time it can take for the ENTIRE aircraft to burn! In the event of a crash on land, you need to follow what the placards say - not the stewards, not the pilots, and certainly not your fellow passengers: look out the window for smoke, fire or other dangers, and if you do not see any then immediately open the door and evacuate. It would be nice to be able to follow the cabin crew's instructions, but as the article notes, even the US government finds their decision-making to be "poor". I'm open to change my mind if I see strong evidence to the contrary, but otherwise this looks like yet another case of that.
- thesh4d0w 3y ago
  If you had read about this story, you would know it was 18 minutes from the plane first touching the ground to being evacuated. This includes the time it spent careening down the runway with a massive fireball.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    I like this interpretation where one should only follow the placards, ignore the pilot and crew because they're untrustworthy, and open the door to an inferno and jump in. The discrepancy between "can be evacuated in 90s in a simulated emergency" and "actually evacuated in 18min in real emergency with untrained members of the general public (with 100% survival despite the inferno)" just doesn't strike me as that problematic.
    - Arn_Thor 3y ago
      Exactly. Someone would have looked out the window, seen no apparent fire, and opened the slide right into a runaway engine
  - ianburrell 3y ago
V__ 3y ago
It was 18 minutes until the last person, the captain, evacuated. [1] Until an investigative report is released, and the timeline thoroughly reconstructed, it is bettee to ignore all such articles. [1] https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240104_06/ https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240104_06/
pontifier 3y ago
I've been flying a lot recently, and have been thinking about why it is so slow to get off of a plane sometimes. The majority of the slowdown seems to be from people who aren't ready to move down the aisle blocking those who are trying to go down the aisle. If people would wait until a gap to enter the aisle to grab their bags the whole thing would go a lot faster. In an emergency you're not supposed to grab your bags, but somehow I imagine this behavior to still play a role.
- marlene123 3y ago
  Plus all the ridiculous animals that could cause chaos..panic people are hard enough to evacuate and I was a flight attendant
marlene123 3y ago
Well from a former Pan am flight attendant I was so impressed they did it in 18 mins. Japanese people follow directions.If this had been in New York City where I was based it would have been chaos.and I wonder if there were dogs on board…I bet not.The US carriers need toStop so many animals on board.Has the FAA ever done a stimulation of a smoked filled plane with 3 dogs on board.That should be done and I bet airlines stop all these service dogs on planes.hurrah for JAL flight attendants.They did an amazing job.They are hero’s.

24 points by ilamont 3y ago

https://archive.ph/j0mOe https://archive.ph/j0mOe

> In its certification test, Airbus was required to prove that its A350 aircraft can be evacuated in less than 90 seconds. I literally laughed out loud at this. People can't seem to orderly exit a plane under regular conditions, without panic, without smoke, without an incline. I'd love to see the videos of evacuations during the certification process. I also have to wonder if they have a representative group of body sizes, age, and physical ability in their tests.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tambour 3y ago
Not the A350, but here's a clip of the A380's certification process in action: https://youtu.be/G_8hbsWKoOU?si=9y_8YaXSsLCbphxY https://youtu.be/G_8hbsWKoOU?si=9y_8YaXSsLCbphxY
- avidiax 3y ago
  Now offer a randomly selected 10% of the passengers a $10,000 bonus if they exit in the first half of passengers, and another 10% a $500 bonus if they can get any piece of their luggage off with them. Tell the FA's that the captain will signal the evacuation, and then don't let him. Fill the cabin air with fake smoke, and have noise equal to one side of the engines running at go-around power outside the plane.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    Reminds me of Samsung proudly proclaiming that they tested their foldable OLED phone with a robot to thousands of open-close cycles… in a clean room, inside a dust-free glass enclosure. Now try… ten. Just ten open-close cycles after sitting down at the beach.
owenversteeg 3y ago
You may be surprised that under real world emergency conditions, people are actually able to evacuate in around that time. Half of the passengers of the recent Sukhoi 100 crash evacuated in 70 seconds, and that was even with many of them stopping to take baggage with them - a decision that condemned the rest to a fiery death. >I also have to wonder if they have a representative group of body sizes, age, and physical ability in their tests. They do indeed. They also have dimmed lights, randomly blocked doors, and debris strewn throughout the cabin.

interloxia 3y ago

I was pleased to hear, but a little surprised that, according to the article, the captain found some more passengers on a final sweep. It would be tempting not to take the risk. Short of asking a pilot how they could make a calculated risk, I found the following. The International Society of Air Safety (9.11) notes that there "when practical, the commander may decide to check the entire passenger cabin before leaving the aeroplane." The section also notes some potential disadvantages of the flight crew helping with the evacuation. https://www.isasi.org/Documents/Library/raes-emergency-evacuation-of-commercial-passenger-aeroplanes-paper-second-edition-june-2020.pdf https://www.isasi.org/Documents/Library/raes-emergency-evacu...

owenversteeg 3y ago

I don't care what excuses you make, eighteen minutes to evacuate a burning aircraft is completely unacceptable. There is a reason why 90 seconds to evacuate, with half the doors blocked, dimmed lighting and obstructions, is the law. I find the comments by the cabin crew union disturbing, that they "appear to perform their jobs perfectly". Three minutes to open doors is more than twice the time it can take for the ENTIRE aircraft to burn! In the event of a crash on land, you need to follow what the placards say - not the stewards, not the pilots, and certainly not your fellow passengers: look out the window for smoke, fire or other dangers, and if you do not see any then immediately open the door and evacuate. It would be nice to be able to follow the cabin crew's instructions, but as the article notes, even the US government finds their decision-making to be "poor". I'm open to change my mind if I see strong evidence to the contrary, but otherwise this looks like yet another case of that.

thesh4d0w 3y ago
If you had read about this story, you would know it was 18 minutes from the plane first touching the ground to being evacuated. This includes the time it spent careening down the runway with a massive fireball.
- klyrs 3y ago
  I like this interpretation where one should only follow the placards, ignore the pilot and crew because they're untrustworthy, and open the door to an inferno and jump in. The discrepancy between "can be evacuated in 90s in a simulated emergency" and "actually evacuated in 18min in real emergency with untrained members of the general public (with 100% survival despite the inferno)" just doesn't strike me as that problematic.
  - Arn_Thor 3y ago
    Exactly. Someone would have looked out the window, seen no apparent fire, and opened the slide right into a runaway engine
- ianburrell 3y ago

V__ 3y ago

It was 18 minutes until the last person, the captain, evacuated. [1] Until an investigative report is released, and the timeline thoroughly reconstructed, it is bettee to ignore all such articles. [1] https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240104_06/ https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240104_06/

pontifier 3y ago

I've been flying a lot recently, and have been thinking about why it is so slow to get off of a plane sometimes. The majority of the slowdown seems to be from people who aren't ready to move down the aisle blocking those who are trying to go down the aisle. If people would wait until a gap to enter the aisle to grab their bags the whole thing would go a lot faster. In an emergency you're not supposed to grab your bags, but somehow I imagine this behavior to still play a role.

marlene123 3y ago
Plus all the ridiculous animals that could cause chaos..panic people are hard enough to evacuate and I was a flight attendant

marlene123 3y ago

Well from a former Pan am flight attendant I was so impressed they did it in 18 mins. Japanese people follow directions.If this had been in New York City where I was based it would have been chaos.and I wonder if there were dogs on board…I bet not.The US carriers need toStop so many animals on board.Has the FAA ever done a stimulation of a smoked filled plane with 3 dogs on board.That should be done and I bet airlines stop all these service dogs on planes.hurrah for JAL flight attendants.They did an amazing job.They are hero’s.