3 ms·

Food for thought: what about driving a massive deadly hunk of metal through a community?

vladms 3y ago
To progress in the same direction: what about having a static deadly hunk of metal at second floor of your house? The point I am trying to make: most of things flying seem more dangerous (higher speed, higher reach, different fuel) than cars.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  > most of things flying seem more dangerous And yet somehow flying is safer than driving! As a sibling comment mentions, a lot of that has to do with all of the safety controls in place. My point is that driving at modern speeds in modern vehicles is actually pretty dangerous, even if not as dangerous as aviation, and yet we as a society exercise very little oversight over the activity. There are good reasons to not have "ADS-B for cars", mostly related to privacy. Unlike flying, many people heavily rely on cars to carry out their day-to-day activities. But I think it's at least worth thinking about.
  - pc86 3y ago
    Commercial aviation is safer than driving. General aviation is no safer than riding a motorcycle, and may be even more dangerous, so it is definitely not safer than driving. And the people complaining about ADS-B are going to be almost exclusively grumpy old guys flying around in J3 cubs.
    - BoThrowAway 3y ago
      Man, that discussion has been around for a long, long time- I'm a grumpy old guy that's been riding motorcycles of one type or another since I was 11, and flying since I was 16. Btw, I'm a huge fan of both ADS-B as well as TCAS... TCAS when I'm flying, ADS-B when I get to watch my son training at Navy Corpus. Hanging around FBOs/flight lines/bars with pilots that also ride, it's come down to this: After countless attempts and arguments while trying to normalize accident/fatal accident rates by converting hours flown/miles ridden, statistics do support that GA does seem to be a bit more dangerous than riding. That having been said, my opinion is that most of the GA risks are in the hands of the pilot, while most of the risks of riding are external to the rider. Most of the worst motorcycle accidents I've seen or heard of involved the rider getting schwacked by a car or truck, while most of the worst GA accidents involved the pilot schwacking him or herself with poor judgement and/or skills that are below MIF. I put a lot of effort into minimizing pilot-induced risk when I fly, so scientifically speaking and all, I -feel- safer when flying than riding, and probably am.
    - grogenaut 3y ago
      Could you please reference some stats? I've googled before and have never been able to find motorcycle / GA stats... right now your comment sounds like someone quoting a nurse/doctor friend saying "donorcycles"
jMyles 3y ago
Yeah, I mean, I'm a full-time cyclist, so you won't find a lot of car love from me. :-) But I do think there's a difference in risk. Aviation has a pretty dang good record, and I think that the tradition of transparency in comms and telemetry is a huge part of that.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > Aviation has a pretty dang good record While this is true about commercial airliners it is not true for general aviation. The safety of general aviation is roughly comparable to motorbikes.
  - jMyles 3y ago
    Both general aviation and motorbikes have a track record (at least in relative terms) that's pretty good _with respect to injuring or killing third parties_, which I thought was the thrust of the inquiry.
OJFord 3y ago
Well yeah, number plates?
- yreg 3y ago
  I don't think that's comparable since there is no rideradar24 where you could check out every ride anyone takes with their car. Also, who owns which plate is not public information. I believe that plenty of people would object to that level of tracking citing privacy reasons. (I'm not against ADS-B myself.)
  - OJFord 3y ago
    True, I suppose that is more like the tail call signs it whatever they're called - only recorded (possibly automatically like ANPR) if someone bothers too, not broadcasted or squawked and ident'd.
    - OJFord 3y ago
      I can't bear it: of course I meant 'or whatever' and 'bothers to', typing from mobile.

To progress in the same direction: what about having a static deadly hunk of metal at second floor of your house? The point I am trying to make: most of things flying seem more dangerous (higher speed, higher reach, different fuel) than cars.

nerdponx 3y ago
> most of things flying seem more dangerous And yet somehow flying is safer than driving! As a sibling comment mentions, a lot of that has to do with all of the safety controls in place. My point is that driving at modern speeds in modern vehicles is actually pretty dangerous, even if not as dangerous as aviation, and yet we as a society exercise very little oversight over the activity. There are good reasons to not have "ADS-B for cars", mostly related to privacy. Unlike flying, many people heavily rely on cars to carry out their day-to-day activities. But I think it's at least worth thinking about.
- pc86 3y ago
  Commercial aviation is safer than driving. General aviation is no safer than riding a motorcycle, and may be even more dangerous, so it is definitely not safer than driving. And the people complaining about ADS-B are going to be almost exclusively grumpy old guys flying around in J3 cubs.
  - BoThrowAway 3y ago
    Man, that discussion has been around for a long, long time- I'm a grumpy old guy that's been riding motorcycles of one type or another since I was 11, and flying since I was 16. Btw, I'm a huge fan of both ADS-B as well as TCAS... TCAS when I'm flying, ADS-B when I get to watch my son training at Navy Corpus. Hanging around FBOs/flight lines/bars with pilots that also ride, it's come down to this: After countless attempts and arguments while trying to normalize accident/fatal accident rates by converting hours flown/miles ridden, statistics do support that GA does seem to be a bit more dangerous than riding. That having been said, my opinion is that most of the GA risks are in the hands of the pilot, while most of the risks of riding are external to the rider. Most of the worst motorcycle accidents I've seen or heard of involved the rider getting schwacked by a car or truck, while most of the worst GA accidents involved the pilot schwacking him or herself with poor judgement and/or skills that are below MIF. I put a lot of effort into minimizing pilot-induced risk when I fly, so scientifically speaking and all, I -feel- safer when flying than riding, and probably am.
  - grogenaut 3y ago
    Could you please reference some stats? I've googled before and have never been able to find motorcycle / GA stats... right now your comment sounds like someone quoting a nurse/doctor friend saying "donorcycles"

jMyles 3y ago

Yeah, I mean, I'm a full-time cyclist, so you won't find a lot of car love from me. :-) But I do think there's a difference in risk. Aviation has a pretty dang good record, and I think that the tradition of transparency in comms and telemetry is a huge part of that.

krisoft 3y ago
> Aviation has a pretty dang good record While this is true about commercial airliners it is not true for general aviation. The safety of general aviation is roughly comparable to motorbikes.
- jMyles 3y ago
  Both general aviation and motorbikes have a track record (at least in relative terms) that's pretty good _with respect to injuring or killing third parties_, which I thought was the thrust of the inquiry.

OJFord 3y ago

Well yeah, number plates?

yreg 3y ago
I don't think that's comparable since there is no rideradar24 where you could check out every ride anyone takes with their car. Also, who owns which plate is not public information. I believe that plenty of people would object to that level of tracking citing privacy reasons. (I'm not against ADS-B myself.)
- OJFord 3y ago
  True, I suppose that is more like the tail call signs it whatever they're called - only recorded (possibly automatically like ANPR) if someone bothers too, not broadcasted or squawked and ident'd.
  - OJFord 3y ago
    I can't bear it: of course I meant 'or whatever' and 'bothers to', typing from mobile.