4 ms·

> a copper pair going along the fibers I learned the other day that this is actually a thing one can buy. Direct bury hybrid fiber copper, up to looked like 2

by zrail 3y ago

> a copper pair going along the fibers I learned the other day that this is actually a thing one can buy. Direct bury hybrid fiber copper, up to looked like 2 OS2 strands and 2 12awg copper conductors. It's fantastically expensive but might be worth it for certain applications, like cameras that are beyond PoE distance limits and also don't have power available.

xoa 3y ago
I wish this was a broadly supported and mass manufactured standard and the industry had gone more that way ages ago. Optical for data and still have a couple plain strands of copper (no need for shielding, twisted pairs etc) for power. There isn't any particular reason it should be fantastically expensive beyond lack of mass manufacturing and standards. Ah well.
- zrail 3y ago
  Honestly it probably only helps installation costs, and not by much. There are no code issues with running standard direct bury copper in the same trench as direct bury fiber, nor are there any code issues (iirc, I am not an electrician) with running them in the same conduit even. Plain direct bury OS2 and 12/2 or 12/3 copper is dirt cheap and the fancy cable they use for generators that has 12/3 plus additional current sense conductors isn't that much more expensive.
Moto7451 3y ago
With 12AWG, depending on the cable type and rating, you can bring 20-30A (90C rated) of power to go with your fiber in the same pull. The cable might be expensive but I’m sure the use case is great for when you don’t want to spend $10,000 on bringing a service trunk and meter to where your network equipment is being installed.
- dylan604 3y ago
  Sounds perfect for long runs requiring repeaters/boosters or whatever kind of inline equipment that could be necessary
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    And power the network gear at the end of the fibre run at the same time
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Even for remote connections requiring a data line, seems like supplying power via solar/battery. Otherwise, you'll get some asshat that plugs in their microwave and/or kettle and ruins it for everyone else.
- nick222226 3y ago
  Electricians hate this one trick!
- dwater 3y ago
  OM4 fiber is rated at 10GB up to 500m or ~1800ft, and the amount of current that 12AWG copper could carry at that distance with acceptable voltage drop is pretty low, so you'd probably still need to be stepping the voltage up and down on each end. I looked into this recently daydreaming about building a small office in the woods.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  > With 12AWG, depending on the cable type and rating, you can bring 20-30A (90C rated) of power to go with your fiber in the same pull. Wire size is calculated off the 75C column of the ampacity table (NEC 310.16) so #12 wire is only good for 25A. The reason being, there are almost no circuit breakers rated for 90C, the terminals/lugs are only rated for 75C in nearly all cases. Forum thread w discussion: https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/90-degree-or-75-degree.2551455/ https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/90-degree-or-75-degree.2...
  - Moto7451 3y ago
    For residential, yes, but commercial is a different story. Schneider will happily sell you 90c rated equipment beyond the wire. They provide excellent guidance: https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/0110db9901wiretempratetermdb/0110db9901-wire-temp-ratings-and-terminations/0110DB9901%20Wire%20Temp%20Ratings%20and%20Terminations/English/0110DB9901%20(bookmap)_0000485497.xml/$/TheNECRules-D1995BA7#EquipmentRatedFor100AOrLessNEC110.1-D1B8465D2 https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/0110db9901wir... I don’t think anyone needs shared fiber and 12ga cable in a home setting anyway. The NEC also defers to UL and similar bodies for installations being cleared so the complexities go beyond the basic NEC guidance, especially for the exotic stuff out there.
    - quickthrowman 3y ago
      I’m a commercial electrical project manager and I’ve never seen a spec call for 90C rated breakers. I bought dozens of panelboards last year from multiple manufacturers, including Square D. You also need equipment lugs/terminal blocks/wire nuts rated for 90C. I’m not saying 90C rated parts don’t exist, it’s just uncommon enough that you select wire based on the 75C column by default, even in a commercial setting.
michaelt 3y ago
> It's fantastically expensive Right now you can buy 50m USB3 cables made of 'Active Optical Cable' which is a fiber data link with two copper wires for power. Options start at ~$100 for 50m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html and prices go up to https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybrid-usb-3-0-cable-p9476 https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybr... - not cheap, but considering how few they probably sell and that you're getting a special custom type of cable, kinda affordable.
- swores 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I can't quite explain it, but... having not known of the existence of such cables, and despite the fact that it's good I don't have a use for one since they're not exactly cheap, there's something about them that makes me want to buy one. I've really no idea why, but I even spent a few minutes wondering if there's anything I've never done due to not having a cable like that, but didn't think of anything. (And it's not like I'm a cable collector or enthusiast or anything like that, generally!)
  - NavinF 3y ago
    Move your desktop to the basement and use optical cables to connect your monitor and all the peripherals located in your room. This is one of the common use cases and it was popularized by Linus from LTT. He has optical Thunderbolt (PCIe and USB) at his desk and optical DisplayPort in several rooms. The latter allows screen casting without the usual compression artifacts, input lag, and low refresh rate that you get from shoving a 32gbps signal down a 1gbps pipe
    - swores 3y ago
      Thanks! At the moment I'm enjoying my gaming PC adding a little bit of warmth in my home office that anyway needs heating constantly during the winter anyway... but would be tempted to get the PC out of sight in the future. Any ideas of reputable brands for optical display port (and miniDP) cables? Did a quick search and the first version was £80 for 10m / £100 for 20m on Amazon from one of those shitty, random name Chinese "companies" (in this case called "ATZEBE), which wouldn't surprise me if it was actually just the cheapest DP cable of the right length they could find rather than the real deal. (Not that I'd trust buying any cable on Amazon, even one they claim is sold directly by a company like Apple, considering Amazon's co-mingling system leads to any time they claim "sold by x company" has for years actually meant "one or more of the stock we have for this item is sold by the company that its claiming to be made by, good luck hoping you get one of the legit ones".) And thinking about the two options that user michaelt linked in the comment I replied to just above you: > "Options start at ~$100 for 50m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html and prices go up to [£450 / $570 USD for 50m at:] https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybrid-usb-3-0-cable-p9476 https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybr... To what extent is the expensive one the equivalent of an audiophile getting a placebo effect from using overpriced audio cables that make no difference in a blind test, vs. it being the price needed for a good quality 50m optical/hybrid USB cable while the cheap one linked on AliExpress might either perform worse, last less long, or be an outright scam like those fake USB storage sticks that are hacked to tell the OS that they have more capacity than they actually do?
hinkley 3y ago
There was a time they were suggesting structured cabling for new buildings, that ran power fiber and coax through the same ~1 inch cable. Because you didn’t know what you’d want and where you’d want it.
- zrail 3y ago
  Yep, I remember seeing a variant with 2x Cat5e, 2x coax, and fiber. Iirc the argument against them was that they were a pain to install in typical residential framed construction because the bend radius in reality was like 3 feet (probably exaggerated, but not by much). Having now done retrofit Ethernet install in a 75 year old house, if I ever build a new house it's going to have low voltage conduit from attic or basement to every interior wall and one or more big conduits from attic to a single home run location, itself with a dedicated 20A circuit.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Every time I have to touch wiring I think there's someone out there who could get rich figuring out how to make it easier to edit the wiring in finished walls. Though I do know there's a company out there that makes manufactured 2x6 stud (tstuds is one name) that's basically 2 3x2's with diagonal pins between them. Quieter, less thermal transfer, and cheaper to make high R outside walls since the cost scales faster with length than width. Snaking a new cable through an interior walls made of that stuff would just require your typical fiberglass pole, with little to no drilling.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by zrail 3y ago

xoa 3y ago

I wish this was a broadly supported and mass manufactured standard and the industry had gone more that way ages ago. Optical for data and still have a couple plain strands of copper (no need for shielding, twisted pairs etc) for power. There isn't any particular reason it should be fantastically expensive beyond lack of mass manufacturing and standards. Ah well.

zrail 3y ago
Honestly it probably only helps installation costs, and not by much. There are no code issues with running standard direct bury copper in the same trench as direct bury fiber, nor are there any code issues (iirc, I am not an electrician) with running them in the same conduit even. Plain direct bury OS2 and 12/2 or 12/3 copper is dirt cheap and the fancy cable they use for generators that has 12/3 plus additional current sense conductors isn't that much more expensive.

Moto7451 3y ago

With 12AWG, depending on the cable type and rating, you can bring 20-30A (90C rated) of power to go with your fiber in the same pull. The cable might be expensive but I’m sure the use case is great for when you don’t want to spend $10,000 on bringing a service trunk and meter to where your network equipment is being installed.

dylan604 3y ago
Sounds perfect for long runs requiring repeaters/boosters or whatever kind of inline equipment that could be necessary
- wongarsu 3y ago
  And power the network gear at the end of the fibre run at the same time
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Even for remote connections requiring a data line, seems like supplying power via solar/battery. Otherwise, you'll get some asshat that plugs in their microwave and/or kettle and ruins it for everyone else.
nick222226 3y ago
Electricians hate this one trick!
dwater 3y ago
OM4 fiber is rated at 10GB up to 500m or ~1800ft, and the amount of current that 12AWG copper could carry at that distance with acceptable voltage drop is pretty low, so you'd probably still need to be stepping the voltage up and down on each end. I looked into this recently daydreaming about building a small office in the woods.
quickthrowman 3y ago
> With 12AWG, depending on the cable type and rating, you can bring 20-30A (90C rated) of power to go with your fiber in the same pull. Wire size is calculated off the 75C column of the ampacity table (NEC 310.16) so #12 wire is only good for 25A. The reason being, there are almost no circuit breakers rated for 90C, the terminals/lugs are only rated for 75C in nearly all cases. Forum thread w discussion: https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/90-degree-or-75-degree.2551455/ https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/90-degree-or-75-degree.2...
- Moto7451 3y ago
  For residential, yes, but commercial is a different story. Schneider will happily sell you 90c rated equipment beyond the wire. They provide excellent guidance: https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/0110db9901wiretempratetermdb/0110db9901-wire-temp-ratings-and-terminations/0110DB9901%20Wire%20Temp%20Ratings%20and%20Terminations/English/0110DB9901%20(bookmap)_0000485497.xml/$/TheNECRules-D1995BA7#EquipmentRatedFor100AOrLessNEC110.1-D1B8465D2 https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/0110db9901wir... I don’t think anyone needs shared fiber and 12ga cable in a home setting anyway. The NEC also defers to UL and similar bodies for installations being cleared so the complexities go beyond the basic NEC guidance, especially for the exotic stuff out there.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    I’m a commercial electrical project manager and I’ve never seen a spec call for 90C rated breakers. I bought dozens of panelboards last year from multiple manufacturers, including Square D. You also need equipment lugs/terminal blocks/wire nuts rated for 90C. I’m not saying 90C rated parts don’t exist, it’s just uncommon enough that you select wire based on the 75C column by default, even in a commercial setting.

michaelt 3y ago

> It's fantastically expensive Right now you can buy 50m USB3 cables made of 'Active Optical Cable' which is a fiber data link with two copper wires for power. Options start at ~$100 for 50m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html and prices go up to https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybrid-usb-3-0-cable-p9476 https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybr... - not cheap, but considering how few they probably sell and that you're getting a special custom type of cable, kinda affordable.

swores 3y ago
Thanks for sharing. I can't quite explain it, but... having not known of the existence of such cables, and despite the fact that it's good I don't have a use for one since they're not exactly cheap, there's something about them that makes me want to buy one. I've really no idea why, but I even spent a few minutes wondering if there's anything I've never done due to not having a cable like that, but didn't think of anything. (And it's not like I'm a cable collector or enthusiast or anything like that, generally!)
- NavinF 3y ago
  Move your desktop to the basement and use optical cables to connect your monitor and all the peripherals located in your room. This is one of the common use cases and it was popularized by Linus from LTT. He has optical Thunderbolt (PCIe and USB) at his desk and optical DisplayPort in several rooms. The latter allows screen casting without the usual compression artifacts, input lag, and low refresh rate that you get from shoving a 32gbps signal down a 1gbps pipe
  - swores 3y ago
    Thanks! At the moment I'm enjoying my gaming PC adding a little bit of warmth in my home office that anyway needs heating constantly during the winter anyway... but would be tempted to get the PC out of sight in the future. Any ideas of reputable brands for optical display port (and miniDP) cables? Did a quick search and the first version was £80 for 10m / £100 for 20m on Amazon from one of those shitty, random name Chinese "companies" (in this case called "ATZEBE), which wouldn't surprise me if it was actually just the cheapest DP cable of the right length they could find rather than the real deal. (Not that I'd trust buying any cable on Amazon, even one they claim is sold directly by a company like Apple, considering Amazon's co-mingling system leads to any time they claim "sold by x company" has for years actually meant "one or more of the stock we have for this item is sold by the company that its claiming to be made by, good luck hoping you get one of the legit ones".) And thinking about the two options that user michaelt linked in the comment I replied to just above you: > "Options start at ~$100 for 50m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html and prices go up to [£450 / $570 USD for 50m at:] https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybrid-usb-3-0-cable-p9476 https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybr... To what extent is the expensive one the equivalent of an audiophile getting a placebo effect from using overpriced audio cables that make no difference in a blind test, vs. it being the price needed for a good quality 50m optical/hybrid USB cable while the cheap one linked on AliExpress might either perform worse, last less long, or be an outright scam like those fake USB storage sticks that are hacked to tell the OS that they have more capacity than they actually do?

hinkley 3y ago

There was a time they were suggesting structured cabling for new buildings, that ran power fiber and coax through the same ~1 inch cable. Because you didn’t know what you’d want and where you’d want it.

zrail 3y ago
Yep, I remember seeing a variant with 2x Cat5e, 2x coax, and fiber. Iirc the argument against them was that they were a pain to install in typical residential framed construction because the bend radius in reality was like 3 feet (probably exaggerated, but not by much). Having now done retrofit Ethernet install in a 75 year old house, if I ever build a new house it's going to have low voltage conduit from attic or basement to every interior wall and one or more big conduits from attic to a single home run location, itself with a dedicated 20A circuit.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Every time I have to touch wiring I think there's someone out there who could get rich figuring out how to make it easier to edit the wiring in finished walls. Though I do know there's a company out there that makes manufactured 2x6 stud (tstuds is one name) that's basically 2 3x2's with diagonal pins between them. Quieter, less thermal transfer, and cheaper to make high R outside walls since the cost scales faster with length than width. Snaking a new cable through an interior walls made of that stuff would just require your typical fiberglass pole, with little to no drilling.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]