5 ms·

> It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. Hamas, Fatah and the Palest

> It would need a profound change in Israeli politics to push for a two-state solution now, and the West has only limited leverage. Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have repeatedly rejected any two-state solution proposals. Hamas in particular has always resorted to terrorism. The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population.

ethbr1 3y ago
> The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population. Yitzhak Rabin would presumably disagree.
- baryphonic 3y ago
  Interesting you bring Rabin up, because it's a good point of comparison. How has Israel treated Yigal Amir? How has Hamas treated the 10/7 terrorists? How many Israelis support what Amir did? How many Gazans support the 10/7 terrorists?
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Probably about what you'd expect, given one country has a functioning economy and the other doesn't. [0] There are whackos on both the Israeli and Palestinian side. The difference is that Gaza has 25-45% unemployment. [1] At the end of the day as James Carville reduced it: 'it's the economy, stupid.' [2] People with economic prospects are happy and stable. People without are willing to take insane risks. And at the end of the day, most people just want to live their life (there will always be crazies, but they'll be outnumbered). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Amir's_release https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Ami... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid
The_Colonel 3y ago
> Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have repeatedly rejected any two-state solution proposals. There were an only couple of negotiations. We don't even know the details, but in general the rough outline was that the Palestinian state wouldn't be sovereign - it would be more like a protectorate, with no self-defense capabilities etc. But there simply is no alternative. Israel, international community needs to persistently push for a real two-state solution. Not like once in a decade (the last attempt was 2008) some weak offer with basically no real political support (part of the reason they were dismissed by Palestinians, there was no credibility to them). I mean, what are the other options? Forever apartheid and occupation? War crimes like ethnic cleansing?
- yyyk 3y ago
  >There were an only couple of negotiations Over a period of 30+ years. >We don't even know the details We do if we care to look. There's been a lot published over the years. >it would be more like a protectorate, with no self-defense capabilities etc Like Costa Rica? The basic condition is for the state to be demilitarized. We saw what happens when it isn't. >the last attempt was 2008 Wrong. Even if we don't count Trump's plan, there were the Obama-Kerry negotiations in 2015. >with basically no real political support Yeah, there's very little political support for the Palestinian Authority which last ran an election in... 2006 was it? >I mean, what are the other options? Sometimes the situation just sucks. There are no good options for anyone given the people being what they are.
- baryphonic 3y ago
  > I mean, what are the other options? Forever apartheid and occupation? War crimes like ethnic cleansing? I reject just about all of the assertions in this post, but these straw-man questions are the most egregious. How can anyone reasonably call the Israeli political situation "apartheid?" There are Arab parties in the Knesset, and Arab Israelis have full rights under the law. Apartheid South Africa rather famously did not allow the black population any representation at all in government. Perhaps by "apartheid," you mean that there is some sort of barrier between the Israeli side and the Gaza side. But having a border is not "apartheid," anymore than the US having a border with Mexico, or the UK having a border with the Republic of Ireland. In fact, since 2005, the Israelis have largely been absent from Gaza, only intervening to stop things like rocket attacks aimed at Israeli civilians. Or maybe you mean that Israel's blockade of Gaza constitutes "apartheid," though this is really torturing the definition beyond recognition. I am astonished you bring up ethnic cleansing, when all of the evidence points the opposite way: that Jewish people are victims of ethnic cleansing across the Islamic world, whereas the populations within Gaza and the Judea & Samaria area have grown extensively and currently have high growth rates. If you pick any country in the Islamic Middle East & North Africa, the Jewish population is currently near zero, down from tens- to hundreds-of-thousands a few decades ago. (It's almost as bad for Christians.) Asserting that "ethnic cleansing" at the hands of Israel is happening today (or ever!) is preposterous when literally all evidence contradicts it. I actually think the "other options" are simple, though quite difficult in practice: Hamas & Fatah could put down their weapons, accept that the State of Israel has a right to exist and agree to control the radical elements within their populations. If that happened, you'd have a two-state solution in no time. The difficulty is that there is little political appetite for this in the Judea & Samaria area, and none in Gaza, so we're stuck in a stalemate.

ethbr1 3y ago

> The appetite for a "two-state solution" seems much higher in Israel, even in the conservative communities, than it ever has been in the so-called Palestinian population. Yitzhak Rabin would presumably disagree.

baryphonic 3y ago
Interesting you bring Rabin up, because it's a good point of comparison. How has Israel treated Yigal Amir? How has Hamas treated the 10/7 terrorists? How many Israelis support what Amir did? How many Gazans support the 10/7 terrorists?
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Probably about what you'd expect, given one country has a functioning economy and the other doesn't. [0] There are whackos on both the Israeli and Palestinian side. The difference is that Gaza has 25-45% unemployment. [1] At the end of the day as James Carville reduced it: 'it's the economy, stupid.' [2] People with economic prospects are happy and stable. People without are willing to take insane risks. And at the end of the day, most people just want to live their life (there will always be crazies, but they'll be outnumbered). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Amir's_release https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir#Campaigns_for_Ami... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid

The_Colonel 3y ago

> Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have repeatedly rejected any two-state solution proposals. There were an only couple of negotiations. We don't even know the details, but in general the rough outline was that the Palestinian state wouldn't be sovereign - it would be more like a protectorate, with no self-defense capabilities etc. But there simply is no alternative. Israel, international community needs to persistently push for a real two-state solution. Not like once in a decade (the last attempt was 2008) some weak offer with basically no real political support (part of the reason they were dismissed by Palestinians, there was no credibility to them). I mean, what are the other options? Forever apartheid and occupation? War crimes like ethnic cleansing?

yyyk 3y ago
>There were an only couple of negotiations Over a period of 30+ years. >We don't even know the details We do if we care to look. There's been a lot published over the years. >it would be more like a protectorate, with no self-defense capabilities etc Like Costa Rica? The basic condition is for the state to be demilitarized. We saw what happens when it isn't. >the last attempt was 2008 Wrong. Even if we don't count Trump's plan, there were the Obama-Kerry negotiations in 2015. >with basically no real political support Yeah, there's very little political support for the Palestinian Authority which last ran an election in... 2006 was it? >I mean, what are the other options? Sometimes the situation just sucks. There are no good options for anyone given the people being what they are.
baryphonic 3y ago
> I mean, what are the other options? Forever apartheid and occupation? War crimes like ethnic cleansing? I reject just about all of the assertions in this post, but these straw-man questions are the most egregious. How can anyone reasonably call the Israeli political situation "apartheid?" There are Arab parties in the Knesset, and Arab Israelis have full rights under the law. Apartheid South Africa rather famously did not allow the black population any representation at all in government. Perhaps by "apartheid," you mean that there is some sort of barrier between the Israeli side and the Gaza side. But having a border is not "apartheid," anymore than the US having a border with Mexico, or the UK having a border with the Republic of Ireland. In fact, since 2005, the Israelis have largely been absent from Gaza, only intervening to stop things like rocket attacks aimed at Israeli civilians. Or maybe you mean that Israel's blockade of Gaza constitutes "apartheid," though this is really torturing the definition beyond recognition. I am astonished you bring up ethnic cleansing, when all of the evidence points the opposite way: that Jewish people are victims of ethnic cleansing across the Islamic world, whereas the populations within Gaza and the Judea & Samaria area have grown extensively and currently have high growth rates. If you pick any country in the Islamic Middle East & North Africa, the Jewish population is currently near zero, down from tens- to hundreds-of-thousands a few decades ago. (It's almost as bad for Christians.) Asserting that "ethnic cleansing" at the hands of Israel is happening today (or ever!) is preposterous when literally all evidence contradicts it. I actually think the "other options" are simple, though quite difficult in practice: Hamas & Fatah could put down their weapons, accept that the State of Israel has a right to exist and agree to control the radical elements within their populations. If that happened, you'd have a two-state solution in no time. The difficulty is that there is little political appetite for this in the Judea & Samaria area, and none in Gaza, so we're stuck in a stalemate.