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Attacks on merchant ships can't be tolerated, period. That's a fact regardless of whether one thinks about Israel or the US role there. My take on this is prett

Attacks on merchant ships can't be tolerated, period. That's a fact regardless of whether one thinks about Israel or the US role there. My take on this is pretty crass: I hope a coalition of whoever is interested and affected can help level as much as is necessary in Yemen and that mission is accomplished when shipping insurance rates return to what they were before. A ceasefire in Palestine is a good idea no doubt, but from my safe armchair it looks a lot more attractive to spend billions of dollars and risk a lot of collateral damage in land attacks in Yemen than give the impression that a ceasefire happened through blackmail.

slim 3y ago
you're the kind of person who calls the police when workers are on strike ?
- alkonaut 3y ago
  Wait what? I'm staunchly pro-union. In fact I'm strongly supporting my local union against Tesla in Sweden thanks for asking. But of course their blockade of Tesla is legal. Even the sympathy actions like garbage collectors refusing to fetch trash at Tesla service locations is of course, legal.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  If strikers start shooting random civilians nearby, even the staunchest labor organizer should probably consider a call to 911.
  - slim 3y ago
    I'm not aware of anybody who got killed when Yemeni boarded the ships. No hostages were taken and no ransom was asked. In fact it seems the only casualties are Yemeni who got killed by a US Navy ship who had no reason to be there in first place.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      They're shooting missiles at civilian ships. They are thankfully large targets with few humans, but that's not safe behavior. Someone's eventually going to get hurt/killed if it continues. The US Navy ship has every right to be there under international law, and its reason for being there is to repel attacks on civilian shipping that also has every right to be there.
      - andag 3y ago
        > The US Navy ship has every right to be there under international law, and its reason for being there is to repel attacks on civilian shipping that also has every right to be there. Every right to go to another countries waters and kill it's solders who are imposing a blockade ordered by their government? - A blockade that has killed 0 people I would add. I mean the US can't possibly give in to these terrorists demands right - to stop bombardment of civilians and let in humanitarian aid.... For clarification, do you believe preventing aid from entering gaza under the threat of violence is self defense, but preventing ships from going through the red sea trade route is terrorism? - I mean these ships are informed that they are breaking a blockade and chose to continue anyway, and still no civilians have been hurt.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Every right to go to another countries waters...? Yes. First, the Houthis aren't the recognized government of Yemen by any country except Iran; they don't (legally) control Yemen's territorial waters. Second, even if they did, the vessels are permitted under international law (including treaties Yemen is subject to) to transit the strait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_passage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_passage > A blockade that has killed 0 people I would add. If you run around shooting a gun at people and only hit their cars in the process, expect to still be shot by police if you don't stop. > For clarification, do you believe preventing aid from entering gaza under the threat of violence is self defense... No, I similarly believe Israel is violating international law in various ways. I'm opposed to their blockade of Gaza.
- dang 3y ago
  No personal attacks, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
paganel 3y ago
> can help level as much as is necessary in Yemen That's not how it works. > risk a lot of collateral damage in land attacks in Yemen than give the impression that a ceasefire happened through blackmail. This is just a very, very bad take, you're basically saying "it's better for Yemeni kids and women to get killed [my reading of collateral damage] than for the West to lose face [my reading of the blackmail thing]". Hasn't the West learned anything from Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, like, literally, anything?
- alkonaut 3y ago
  > you're basically saying "it's better for Yemeni kids and women to get killed [my reading of collateral damage] than for the West to lose face That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that these things (israel, vs merchant shipping) basically cannot be allowed to be linked, because they aren't. It's simply blackmail. If the merchant shipping is seen as isolated, then it's clear it can't be tolerated. We can't tolerate the attacks, and we can't tolerate disruptions such as caused by massive detours. > Hasn't the West learned anything from Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, like, literally, anything? Iraq and Afghanistan were invasions with the attempted (and nearly impossible) goal of regime change. That's not at all what I'm suggesting should happen. This is about removing the ability to engage in piracy/attacks on merchant ships. > it's better for Yemeni kids and women to get killed [my reading of collateral damage] than for the West to lose face No, it's even more crass than that! we are discussing accepting the loss of civilian life just to maintain shipping insurance prices! And what I'm saying is "yes that's terrible, but less bad than the alternative". The merchant ships are also civilian! The current attacks are deliberate attacks on civilians. We are talking about attacks on military (or paramilitary) targets, in order to stop attacks on civilians! Yet you are arguing that those would be the attacks that put civilian lives at risk?
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    > If the merchant shipping is seen as isolated, then it's clear it can't be tolerated. Agreed. And there's no fundamental reason that "Israel doing what it's doing" justifies "attacking commercial shipping." It's a convenient moral and diplomatic fig leaf over an unrelated action.
jacooper 3y ago
> can help level as much as is necessary in Yemen and that mission is accomplished when shipping insurance rates return to what they were before. Ah yes, because stupid ship insurance rates are more important than human lives in Yemen, nothing new to be honest, we know how the "human rights" world values human lives in Iraq with Abu gharib and the proxy war in Syria to the active genocide in Palestine. As long as its not Europeans or Americans getting attacked it's "complex" and "blackmail".
- baz00 3y ago
  I don't think many people give a crap if I'm honest, at least in Europe. I'll be honest and say I don't. The whole Middle East has done a lot of repetitional damage to itself over the last 20 years by bringing its politics to us in Europe in the form of killing citizens. When it starts using those tactics in home territories against allies we're insensitive to their position. As much as this sucks, Yemen is another Middle East shit show. And it's not a shit show we should expend anything further on other than protecting our shipping lanes. I wish it could have been better but the damage is done. I'd rather everyone just stopped being nut jobs and blowing each other up respectively. And I don't think we should get involved in Middle Eastern politics, just distance ourselves from it.
  - jacooper 3y ago
    Man, if the west completely left the middle east, almost all of the "shit shows" wouldn't exist. The occupation wouldn't exist, the zombie state in Iraq wouldn't exist, and much more. Please just leave it alone!
    - baz00 3y ago
      Oh completely. I'm also 100% fed up of my tax money being spent on stupid attempts to unfuck it.
    - edanm 3y ago
      > The occupation wouldn't exist, If you meant the Israeli occupation, you're wrong. Israel isn't "The West" and isn't able "to leave" in the same way that e.g. the US could leave Afghanistan. This is true both in terms of Israelis having mostly nowhere else to go, and also in that the majority of Israelis aren't Westerners in the first place.
s5300 3y ago
[dead]
leereeves 3y ago
> Attacks on merchant ships can't be tolerated, period. Israel maintains a blockade of Palestine. What do you think they do if a ship tries to sail to Palestine?
- Qem 3y ago
  > Israel maintains a blockade of Palestine. What do you think they do if a ship tries to sail to Palestine? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230531-13-years-since-israels-attack-on-the-gaza-bound-aid-ship-the-mavi-marmara/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230531-13-years-since-is... "The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed during the raid and dozens wounded, including one who later died of his wounds, while ten Israeli soldiers were wounded, one seriously. Three of the six flotilla ships, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), were carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, intending to break the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip."
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
_xnmw 3y ago
And what guarantee can anyone give that this coalition is going to be any more successful than the last one was in Afghanistan?
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  clear goals, and generally clearer targets. we're not here to "democratize" the country, we're here to protect global trade routes, and to strip their ability to launch anti-ship missiles.

slim 3y ago

you're the kind of person who calls the police when workers are on strike ?

alkonaut 3y ago
Wait what? I'm staunchly pro-union. In fact I'm strongly supporting my local union against Tesla in Sweden thanks for asking. But of course their blockade of Tesla is legal. Even the sympathy actions like garbage collectors refusing to fetch trash at Tesla service locations is of course, legal.
ceejayoz 3y ago
If strikers start shooting random civilians nearby, even the staunchest labor organizer should probably consider a call to 911.
- slim 3y ago
  I'm not aware of anybody who got killed when Yemeni boarded the ships. No hostages were taken and no ransom was asked. In fact it seems the only casualties are Yemeni who got killed by a US Navy ship who had no reason to be there in first place.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    They're shooting missiles at civilian ships. They are thankfully large targets with few humans, but that's not safe behavior. Someone's eventually going to get hurt/killed if it continues. The US Navy ship has every right to be there under international law, and its reason for being there is to repel attacks on civilian shipping that also has every right to be there.
    - andag 3y ago
      > The US Navy ship has every right to be there under international law, and its reason for being there is to repel attacks on civilian shipping that also has every right to be there. Every right to go to another countries waters and kill it's solders who are imposing a blockade ordered by their government? - A blockade that has killed 0 people I would add. I mean the US can't possibly give in to these terrorists demands right - to stop bombardment of civilians and let in humanitarian aid.... For clarification, do you believe preventing aid from entering gaza under the threat of violence is self defense, but preventing ships from going through the red sea trade route is terrorism? - I mean these ships are informed that they are breaking a blockade and chose to continue anyway, and still no civilians have been hurt.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Every right to go to another countries waters...? Yes. First, the Houthis aren't the recognized government of Yemen by any country except Iran; they don't (legally) control Yemen's territorial waters. Second, even if they did, the vessels are permitted under international law (including treaties Yemen is subject to) to transit the strait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_passage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_passage > A blockade that has killed 0 people I would add. If you run around shooting a gun at people and only hit their cars in the process, expect to still be shot by police if you don't stop. > For clarification, do you believe preventing aid from entering gaza under the threat of violence is self defense... No, I similarly believe Israel is violating international law in various ways. I'm opposed to their blockade of Gaza.
dang 3y ago
No personal attacks, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

paganel 3y ago

> can help level as much as is necessary in Yemen That's not how it works. > risk a lot of collateral damage in land attacks in Yemen than give the impression that a ceasefire happened through blackmail. This is just a very, very bad take, you're basically saying "it's better for Yemeni kids and women to get killed [my reading of collateral damage] than for the West to lose face [my reading of the blackmail thing]". Hasn't the West learned anything from Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, like, literally, anything?

alkonaut 3y ago
> you're basically saying "it's better for Yemeni kids and women to get killed [my reading of collateral damage] than for the West to lose face That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that these things (israel, vs merchant shipping) basically cannot be allowed to be linked, because they aren't. It's simply blackmail. If the merchant shipping is seen as isolated, then it's clear it can't be tolerated. We can't tolerate the attacks, and we can't tolerate disruptions such as caused by massive detours. > Hasn't the West learned anything from Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, like, literally, anything? Iraq and Afghanistan were invasions with the attempted (and nearly impossible) goal of regime change. That's not at all what I'm suggesting should happen. This is about removing the ability to engage in piracy/attacks on merchant ships. > it's better for Yemeni kids and women to get killed [my reading of collateral damage] than for the West to lose face No, it's even more crass than that! we are discussing accepting the loss of civilian life just to maintain shipping insurance prices! And what I'm saying is "yes that's terrible, but less bad than the alternative". The merchant ships are also civilian! The current attacks are deliberate attacks on civilians. We are talking about attacks on military (or paramilitary) targets, in order to stop attacks on civilians! Yet you are arguing that those would be the attacks that put civilian lives at risk?
- ethbr1 3y ago
  > If the merchant shipping is seen as isolated, then it's clear it can't be tolerated. Agreed. And there's no fundamental reason that "Israel doing what it's doing" justifies "attacking commercial shipping." It's a convenient moral and diplomatic fig leaf over an unrelated action.

jacooper 3y ago

> can help level as much as is necessary in Yemen and that mission is accomplished when shipping insurance rates return to what they were before. Ah yes, because stupid ship insurance rates are more important than human lives in Yemen, nothing new to be honest, we know how the "human rights" world values human lives in Iraq with Abu gharib and the proxy war in Syria to the active genocide in Palestine. As long as its not Europeans or Americans getting attacked it's "complex" and "blackmail".

baz00 3y ago
I don't think many people give a crap if I'm honest, at least in Europe. I'll be honest and say I don't. The whole Middle East has done a lot of repetitional damage to itself over the last 20 years by bringing its politics to us in Europe in the form of killing citizens. When it starts using those tactics in home territories against allies we're insensitive to their position. As much as this sucks, Yemen is another Middle East shit show. And it's not a shit show we should expend anything further on other than protecting our shipping lanes. I wish it could have been better but the damage is done. I'd rather everyone just stopped being nut jobs and blowing each other up respectively. And I don't think we should get involved in Middle Eastern politics, just distance ourselves from it.
- jacooper 3y ago
  Man, if the west completely left the middle east, almost all of the "shit shows" wouldn't exist. The occupation wouldn't exist, the zombie state in Iraq wouldn't exist, and much more. Please just leave it alone!
  - baz00 3y ago
    Oh completely. I'm also 100% fed up of my tax money being spent on stupid attempts to unfuck it.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > The occupation wouldn't exist, If you meant the Israeli occupation, you're wrong. Israel isn't "The West" and isn't able "to leave" in the same way that e.g. the US could leave Afghanistan. This is true both in terms of Israelis having mostly nowhere else to go, and also in that the majority of Israelis aren't Westerners in the first place.

s5300 3y ago

[dead]

leereeves 3y ago

> Attacks on merchant ships can't be tolerated, period. Israel maintains a blockade of Palestine. What do you think they do if a ship tries to sail to Palestine?

Qem 3y ago
> Israel maintains a blockade of Palestine. What do you think they do if a ship tries to sail to Palestine? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230531-13-years-since-israels-attack-on-the-gaza-bound-aid-ship-the-mavi-marmara/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230531-13-years-since-is... "The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed during the raid and dozens wounded, including one who later died of his wounds, while ten Israeli soldiers were wounded, one seriously. Three of the six flotilla ships, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), were carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, intending to break the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip."
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

_xnmw 3y ago

And what guarantee can anyone give that this coalition is going to be any more successful than the last one was in Afghanistan?

red-iron-pine 3y ago
clear goals, and generally clearer targets. we're not here to "democratize" the country, we're here to protect global trade routes, and to strip their ability to launch anti-ship missiles.