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I’m Italian, emigrated to the Netherlands and happily car-free. Ever since Covid happened we rent one for 1 month a year in summer and drive to my in-laws, and

by eecc 3y ago

I’m Italian, emigrated to the Netherlands and happily car-free. Ever since Covid happened we rent one for 1 month a year in summer and drive to my in-laws, and further down in central Italy. Overall clocking ~3.5-4k km. We rented all types, ICE, hybrid and BEV with no noticeable difference: while with the Model Y we had to stop N times to fast-charges and a snack, with the ICE we’d stop anyway to rest, drink or use the toilet even on a half-tank. Range anxiety is a thing, but it’s over after a couple days. It’s just FUD, BEVs are ready

zarkenfrood 3y ago
Netherlands and mainland Europe is hardly indicative of the types of road trips you would experience in Africa, Americas, Australia
- Ringz 3y ago
  And now you have identified the real problem which has to be solved. And it possible at least in the USA.
- eecc 3y ago
  Yeah whatever. It’s where we burn several millions of barrels of gasoline per year, stuff that should be kept in the ground instead. Frankly the amount of Nirvana fallacies in this thread is indicative of the coping stress the petrol-heads are suffering. https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/gasoline_consumption/Eurozone/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/gasoline_consumpti...
  - smegger001 3y ago
    Even if we swapped every ice vehicle for electric and had the charging infrastructure in place, we wouldnt leave all that oil in the ground. Its just to useful, it would be used for plastics, chemical feedstocks, fertilizers, insecticides, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, etc... All those hydrogen carbon bond we dont have to pay the energy for are just to danm useful and valuable for so many industries to leave in the ground.
- natch 3y ago
  It’s a solved problem in the US at least, as long as the car you buy comes from a manufacturer with a good fast charging network, of which there is currently exactly one. Australia is well on its way to being solved for most trips.
calf 3y ago
Yeah but what about continents other than Europe?
- gonzo41 3y ago
  Everywhere in Australia is far away. I'm actually pretty keen on getting a Plugin Hybrid for where I live, we often go on 400KM+ drives into national parks or into state forest areas that get more and more remote as things go on.
  - eecc 3y ago
    Should we structurally stick with ICEs in EU and the US because everything is far in the Australian Outback and for that once in a lifetime road trip in the US?
vladvasiliu 3y ago
> It’s just FUD, BEVs are ready Have you tried going to the mountains in France? Or anywhere not on the main roads, even? I mean actually traveling around, not just taking the highway across. My ICE motorbike has a range of around 300 km on the highway, around 200 in the mountains if I'm enjoying myself. I've had range anxiety with it to the point I now cart around extra gas. None of the gas stations I visited had any kind of charging available (outside your regular outlet, but it's unlikely the attendant will let you hook up your car to the outlet inside the office – if it's even open). Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you do.
- eecc 3y ago
  > Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you do. Sure, but keep in mind that bikers riding on the rolling hills of the French countryside are a significantly smaller demography than the millions driving across the highway infrastructure.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we should push everybody to ride electric bikes just because those riding in remote places are few and far between. The feeling I get whenever these discussions come up is that there's a distinct lack of nuance, and a tendency to shove a one-size-fits-all solution down peoples' throats, even though the solution might only fit-most. I get that it's easier to reason with absolutes, and that sometimes some people may need a nudge to take the jump. But I also understand being pushed like this with no apparent concern for peoples' situations can make them close down to the argument, even if it could actually make sense for them in the end. People complaining about range anxiety are usually told "nah man, it's just FUD!" Maybe it is just FUD even for a sizable portion of those complaining, but just dismissing their concerns out of hand doesn't seem like a good approach. And this isn't just a bunch of people on a random discussion board. It's actual policies being enacted affecting peoples' actual lives. Talking about France, in a few years' time my motorbike won't be allowed inside Paris (where I live). I rarely use it. I'd really love to see the proof that building and buying a new one, to replace the one that is in perfect working condition, is actually better for the environment. Especially given that the newer model which complies with the current pollution standards consumes the same amount of gas as mine (judging by the manufacturer's specs). Of course, this law is stupid because it only considers the year the vehicle was sold, but it's just one example of many why people may have a knee-jerk reaction to being forcibly pushed to adopt new things.
LtWorf 3y ago
NL? Sul serio? A completely flat tiny country? The much longer stops translate into needing to sleep at a hotel rather than being at your destination. You clearly haven't accounted for that either.
- eecc 3y ago
  NL, hai letto bene. I don’t know what to make of this statement though. I’ve clearly accounted for everything dude, including my own endurance and that of my family: every couple hours we need to get out, stretch, have a coffee and use the toilet. Plugging a DC 150kW takes 2 minutes, and we were never stuck in a queue waiting for that. In any case the worse time wasters are roadworks and traffic jams on the German highways and the abysmal wait at the Gotthard Tunnel. If not for them I could easily make it in one day with a Model Y
  - natch 3y ago
    > Plugging a DC 150kW takes 2 minutes More like 2 seconds in a Model Y.
    - eecc 3y ago
      Yeah, I have to say I’m dumbfounded by the brilliance of the UX. all other designs where you have to present a card are simply a failure
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    Why not claim that it's completely 0 emissions (on 100% downhill trips) while at it? You realise that you weren't in a queue because there are very few EVs around I hope?
- natch 3y ago
  Hotels can have electrical outlets. Not to mention chargers which are often faster than electrical outlets. Long trips in huge countries are easy peasy. Charging stops are like 10 minutes every couple hours and sometimes 20 when someone goes in a store for a few minutes. The long charging stops you are thinking of are non-Teslas.
ta1243 3y ago
95c/kwh at rapid chargers in Italy this summer, that's over €800 to recharge for your journey compared with petrol at €1.80, which would be about €400.
- eecc 3y ago
  no man, 21€c/kwh at Tesla SC stations outside Italy, something x2 in the country. Besides, gasoline was outrageously priced last summer, an epic gouging. Please, enough goalpost pushing
  - ta1243 3y ago
    Paid 95c at several rapid chargers along the A1 between Florence and Naples in August. 65c in towns at slower places. 45 was the cheapest I paid.
lagadu 3y ago
I agree with you as that's my reality as well, however the original article is about the US market so the discussion here is for a US context and for them, as far as I understand it, their infrastructure is a lot poorer so the concerns are far more justified.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by eecc 3y ago

zarkenfrood 3y ago

Netherlands and mainland Europe is hardly indicative of the types of road trips you would experience in Africa, Americas, Australia

Ringz 3y ago
And now you have identified the real problem which has to be solved. And it possible at least in the USA.
eecc 3y ago
Yeah whatever. It’s where we burn several millions of barrels of gasoline per year, stuff that should be kept in the ground instead. Frankly the amount of Nirvana fallacies in this thread is indicative of the coping stress the petrol-heads are suffering. https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/gasoline_consumption/Eurozone/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/gasoline_consumpti...
- smegger001 3y ago
  Even if we swapped every ice vehicle for electric and had the charging infrastructure in place, we wouldnt leave all that oil in the ground. Its just to useful, it would be used for plastics, chemical feedstocks, fertilizers, insecticides, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, etc... All those hydrogen carbon bond we dont have to pay the energy for are just to danm useful and valuable for so many industries to leave in the ground.
natch 3y ago
It’s a solved problem in the US at least, as long as the car you buy comes from a manufacturer with a good fast charging network, of which there is currently exactly one. Australia is well on its way to being solved for most trips.

calf 3y ago

Yeah but what about continents other than Europe?

gonzo41 3y ago
Everywhere in Australia is far away. I'm actually pretty keen on getting a Plugin Hybrid for where I live, we often go on 400KM+ drives into national parks or into state forest areas that get more and more remote as things go on.
- eecc 3y ago
  Should we structurally stick with ICEs in EU and the US because everything is far in the Australian Outback and for that once in a lifetime road trip in the US?

vladvasiliu 3y ago

> It’s just FUD, BEVs are ready Have you tried going to the mountains in France? Or anywhere not on the main roads, even? I mean actually traveling around, not just taking the highway across. My ICE motorbike has a range of around 300 km on the highway, around 200 in the mountains if I'm enjoying myself. I've had range anxiety with it to the point I now cart around extra gas. None of the gas stations I visited had any kind of charging available (outside your regular outlet, but it's unlikely the attendant will let you hook up your car to the outlet inside the office – if it's even open). Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you do.

eecc 3y ago
> Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you do. Sure, but keep in mind that bikers riding on the rolling hills of the French countryside are a significantly smaller demography than the millions driving across the highway infrastructure.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we should push everybody to ride electric bikes just because those riding in remote places are few and far between. The feeling I get whenever these discussions come up is that there's a distinct lack of nuance, and a tendency to shove a one-size-fits-all solution down peoples' throats, even though the solution might only fit-most. I get that it's easier to reason with absolutes, and that sometimes some people may need a nudge to take the jump. But I also understand being pushed like this with no apparent concern for peoples' situations can make them close down to the argument, even if it could actually make sense for them in the end. People complaining about range anxiety are usually told "nah man, it's just FUD!" Maybe it is just FUD even for a sizable portion of those complaining, but just dismissing their concerns out of hand doesn't seem like a good approach. And this isn't just a bunch of people on a random discussion board. It's actual policies being enacted affecting peoples' actual lives. Talking about France, in a few years' time my motorbike won't be allowed inside Paris (where I live). I rarely use it. I'd really love to see the proof that building and buying a new one, to replace the one that is in perfect working condition, is actually better for the environment. Especially given that the newer model which complies with the current pollution standards consumes the same amount of gas as mine (judging by the manufacturer's specs). Of course, this law is stupid because it only considers the year the vehicle was sold, but it's just one example of many why people may have a knee-jerk reaction to being forcibly pushed to adopt new things.

LtWorf 3y ago

NL? Sul serio? A completely flat tiny country? The much longer stops translate into needing to sleep at a hotel rather than being at your destination. You clearly haven't accounted for that either.

eecc 3y ago
NL, hai letto bene. I don’t know what to make of this statement though. I’ve clearly accounted for everything dude, including my own endurance and that of my family: every couple hours we need to get out, stretch, have a coffee and use the toilet. Plugging a DC 150kW takes 2 minutes, and we were never stuck in a queue waiting for that. In any case the worse time wasters are roadworks and traffic jams on the German highways and the abysmal wait at the Gotthard Tunnel. If not for them I could easily make it in one day with a Model Y
- natch 3y ago
  > Plugging a DC 150kW takes 2 minutes More like 2 seconds in a Model Y.
  - eecc 3y ago
    Yeah, I have to say I’m dumbfounded by the brilliance of the UX. all other designs where you have to present a card are simply a failure
- LtWorf 3y ago
  Why not claim that it's completely 0 emissions (on 100% downhill trips) while at it? You realise that you weren't in a queue because there are very few EVs around I hope?
natch 3y ago
Hotels can have electrical outlets. Not to mention chargers which are often faster than electrical outlets. Long trips in huge countries are easy peasy. Charging stops are like 10 minutes every couple hours and sometimes 20 when someone goes in a store for a few minutes. The long charging stops you are thinking of are non-Teslas.

ta1243 3y ago

95c/kwh at rapid chargers in Italy this summer, that's over €800 to recharge for your journey compared with petrol at €1.80, which would be about €400.

eecc 3y ago
no man, 21€c/kwh at Tesla SC stations outside Italy, something x2 in the country. Besides, gasoline was outrageously priced last summer, an epic gouging. Please, enough goalpost pushing
- ta1243 3y ago
  Paid 95c at several rapid chargers along the A1 between Florence and Naples in August. 65c in towns at slower places. 45 was the cheapest I paid.

lagadu 3y ago

I agree with you as that's my reality as well, however the original article is about the US market so the discussion here is for a US context and for them, as far as I understand it, their infrastructure is a lot poorer so the concerns are far more justified.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]