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I wholeheartedly agree and am also going to bring another thing up that ICE cars have but EVs don't regarding range: Peace of mind. When we're driving an ICE

I wholeheartedly agree and am also going to bring another thing up that ICE cars have but EVs don't regarding range: Peace of mind. When we're driving an ICE car, we simply don't care about the range. We don't think about it; it's not a concern. That peace of mind is fucking priceless, especially if one's life is already busy with far more pressing concerns. In an EV we have to constantly keep an eye on that battery level, on that Miles Remaining counter. We have to micromanage the A/C and other things that consume power. That is mentally draining, and for what? It's something we don't have to care about in an ICE car. I drove an EV, I constantly worried about the range. Range was constantly on my mind, even when I wasn't driving the fucking thing. It was mentally fucking exhausting. Sincerely: No thanks. I'll happily pay the $50~70 bucks at the gas station to fill up my car in a few minutes and be at peace. It easily beats paying almost nothing charging overnight and then worrying if I can come back home when I start another day.

Mashimo 3y ago
Don't EV cars calculate all that for you and tell you where to stop to charge up again?
- bartvk 3y ago
  Only Tesla does that.
  - Mashimo 3y ago
    That seems weird. Edit: Just looked up Porsche and they have it too. They call it "Intelligent range optimiser". Can't be asked to check more brands.
  - moooo99 3y ago
    That is false. This integration didn’t exist when the EV versions were just electrified versions of ICE cars. This changed with the upcoming of car by traditional automakers that were designed to be an BEV first. I’ve used the route planning in a Kia EV as well as a VW EV without any issues. You can plan your route with charging points, select the desired remaining capacity, select the kind of charging you want, etc. AFAIK Porsche offers the same features too
  - magicalhippo 3y ago
    My Renault Megane E-tech will tell me the battery % when I reach my destination, and will ask me to add a charging stop on the way if I won't make it. My previous BMW i3 did the same.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  I’m afraid these calculations are more tuned to sweetheart deals the car manufacturer has with the infrastructure owner than to my best interests.
  - brianwawok 3y ago
    Tesla will 100% route to Tesla chargers, which is what you want to use right now. Maybe in 5 years it will be worth thinking about other brands.
- mavhc 3y ago
  My 10 year old EV has a button on the steering wheel that will show all the chargers it knows about within range. If planning a route using the built in satnav it will say "you won't make it, add a charging stop?" But there's so many chargers I don't even bother planning.
mark38848 3y ago
How can you have peace of mind whilst burning the only inhabitable planet for life as we know it?
- lolive 3y ago
  It brings peace of mind, it seems.
- sgu999 3y ago
  If you've been raised in a deeply individualistic culture, the collective well-being doesn't affect your peace of mind. And if you can afford to choose to own an EV, you and your descendants will likely be amongst the least impacted by climate change, migrations, and supply chain disruptions.
  - skriticos2 3y ago
    Hah, so true. If you give up on your ICE now in one of the western democracies, it will be sold as a used car in your country first and continue being driven around by someone poorer, then eventually be shipped to Asia and be driven around there by even poorer people until it eventually goes to Africa and and be driven until it finally gives out. Getting a new EV and dumping the ICE won't change much on that in the short term. So what I want to say is, that poor people have better things to worry about than EVs and sustainability, like getting through the day with food on their plate and maybe a roof over their head. While they will be the most impacted, they can afford to care about it the least. Also, EVs right now just shift the problem around until we manage to produce electricity from renewable sources, which is still some way off, especially in the poor places that will drive the least efficient ICEs while they last.
    - sgu999 3y ago
      In France we have a "bonus for scrapyard" to avoid that [1]. You get an extra discount if you prove that the old car you're replacing is going to be removed from the road. I don't think it's well thought through given how broken the rating of cars is, but that's a step in the right direction I guess. > Also, EVs right now just shift the problem around until we manage to produce electricity from renewable sources Until we manage to actually reduce the amount of cars. The solution for transportation is quite clearly less and smaller vehicles, all EVs. [1] https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/prime-conversion https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/prime-conversion
dhanvee 3y ago
I think this depends a lot on the EV infrastructure around you. Driving an EV in the SF Bay Area is super convenient -- I know all the chargers off the top of my head and maintaining enough range is second nature to me now. I regularly road trip my Model 3 as well without any issues. I don't even look at the miles, just battery %. I recently got an ICE car for fun on the weekends and thinking about gas, oil changes, preventative maintenance, and repairs has been way more stressful than charging. Give the infrastructure a few years to catch up. Now that NACS has taken over in the US, things will only get better.
- DoesntMatter22 3y ago
  I live in super rural South New Jersey. Even here where I don't see many tesla there are plenty of super chargers.
- cogman10 3y ago
  Infrastructure is there, people just have a fixed notion of what the infrastructure looks like. Even our least populated states are littered with fast chargers alone highways and interstates. When I bought my model 3 in 2018, infrastructure was good enough in Idaho the meet my needs, though there were a few tight gaps. Now in 2024 the picture has dramatically changed with every route having excess charge capacity and options. Those down on EVs are having to come up with ever more convoluted scenarios and routes to justify why they aren't feasible. I literally saw one where a person posited they needed to drive from Edmonton to Winnipeg Canada every day during the winter and because an EV is a bad fit for that situation it's a bad fit for everyone.
aragilar 3y ago
I've not driven an EV, so I can't speak to that. But I have been in an ICE car that has run out of petrol (it was truly sitcom-worthy, with the infamous line "Don't worry, it always shows empty when it's got a 1/4 of a tank left" about a minute before the engine died), and this wasn't that far out from Sydney, and there are signs around here (east coast of AU) with how many km/minutes the next fuel stop is after the current one, so I'm not convinced that EV range concerns can't be managed in a similar way.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  They're usually managed even better. (Some) EVs are pretty good at estimating actual range and can automatically tell the driver where the nearest charging points are. The really good ones can also check if there are free slots in the chargers and optimise accordingly.
- CaptWillard 3y ago
  Eh, given the same set of parameters, I have trouble believing a driver who let an ICE car get that low on petrol would've taken the steps necessary to manage the battery charge for that trip. Also, the fuel consumption of an ICE is going to be much more consistent and predictable especially later in it's service life.
  - aragilar 3y ago
    The missing context (which I skipped) was that they had two identical(ish, I couldn't tell the difference, they were the same model though) cars, and the other one did have that behaviour (having witnessed it), I suspect the cause was confusion about which car the different members of the family were using that day. It was also on the way back (so no-one was that stressed about it), so waiting to get back to Sydney would have given much cheaper petrol (NRMA came and gave us enough to get back out of the mountains after 30m).
- Affric 3y ago
  You never* run out of fuel twice though. *hyperbole
bartvk 3y ago
Which one did you drive?
Tor3 3y ago
When my ICE car is getting low on fuel, which happens quite often because the tank isn't that big and I tend to avoid filling up when the prices are high (they vary a lot here), I also have to micromanage the A/C and anything else, because they consume just as much energy as they do in an EV car, and that comes from the gasoline. It's most definitely not something I "don't have to care about". It's actually more of a concern because when my car is low on fuel it's very hard to know exactly how much is left - is it half a liter, two, or three? There are way fewer fueling stations than in the past, so getting there also takes fuel. At least with an EV I could have charged at home or at work or at the shopping mall.. well, I'll stay with my ICE car for a while more but that's because there are other good things about it which aren't yet available for EVs, but I do wish it was an EV.
- zarkenfrood 3y ago
  This is purely your behaviour though, the more general case is that most people dont have to micromanage their ICE vehicles or be concerned about range. Especially in the case where they are doing extended driving trips where even fuel can be scarce jerry cans are easy enough to pack.
  - Tor3 3y ago
    But my point was that A/C and all electric appliances also affect fuel consumption of ICE cars, and if, for any reason, you're low on fuel you have to take that as much into consideration as with an EV car (except that it's often much harder to gauge how much you have left, with an ICE car).
    - NavinF 3y ago
      Of course the AC affects range on ICE cars, but nobody cares about that because there's always a gas station around the corner or at the next exit. You are the exception. That's what all the replies are trying to tell you
      - Tor3 3y ago
theonlybutlet 3y ago
Hah, if only you've seen me in my ICE car. Plenty of hoping and praying the glimmering fuel light doesn't die out and that I'll make it to the fuel station. No peace mind of mind.
nsteel 3y ago
Range anxiety is a short term condition, you get over it after surprisingly quickly. Then you just enjoy driving as normal. Managing charging is easy once you get used to it (in Europe, at least). Actual owners of modern EVs do not micromanage like you claim, you just don't need to. Personally I prefer paying almost nothing (in fuel) for a nicer drive with far less maintenance worries.
- close04 3y ago
  > Range anxiety is a short term condition > I prefer paying almost nothing (in fuel) Both of these look like very dependent on the personal situation. In my case I never really got over the winter induced anxiety (the range dropped severely for my expectations), combined with the lack of home charger, combined with high electricity costs, combined with the fact that I can walk, cycle, or take public transport for most of my needs. I eventually returned to a cheap, small, ICE car that I use occasionally but serves for peace of mind (it's there!) and makes me just as comfortable as an EV makes you. I wouldn't recommend to you a bicycle or even a small car because it's very important not to generalize to others based on my needs.
  - nsteel 3y ago
    Did you have a heat pump? Did you have a car with 300 miles of summer range? The situation these days is far better than what it was but the infrastructure is still catching up to support those without home charging. That does make it more effort, I do not deny (I did it for a bit). Of course all transport ownership is dependent on personal situation. That really goes without saying, just look out the window! I didn't recommend anything, to do so would be daft. I simply do not believe range anxiety is still the problem it once was.
    - close04 3y ago
      > The situation these days I gave it up and switched back in November 2022. While I always keep my options open and an eye out for what makes sense for me, I haven't seen any signs that the situation is radically different in general. It certainly hasn't changed for me personally. > I simply do not believe range anxiety is still the problem it once was. Maybe but that says very little. If your waiter told they don't believe the soup contains anywhere near the amount of spit it once did you wouldn't feel encouraged. I'm happy if the situation is improving and if I still care about owning a car in the future I'll surely reassess if that critical threshold was reached. Anything short of that will get a "very good, keep up the good work" but not my money.
natch 3y ago
This will get better as the charging network gets built out more. And the experience is completely stress free in some cars with a good network today.

Mashimo 3y ago

Don't EV cars calculate all that for you and tell you where to stop to charge up again?

bartvk 3y ago
Only Tesla does that.
- Mashimo 3y ago
  That seems weird. Edit: Just looked up Porsche and they have it too. They call it "Intelligent range optimiser". Can't be asked to check more brands.
- moooo99 3y ago
  That is false. This integration didn’t exist when the EV versions were just electrified versions of ICE cars. This changed with the upcoming of car by traditional automakers that were designed to be an BEV first. I’ve used the route planning in a Kia EV as well as a VW EV without any issues. You can plan your route with charging points, select the desired remaining capacity, select the kind of charging you want, etc. AFAIK Porsche offers the same features too
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  My Renault Megane E-tech will tell me the battery % when I reach my destination, and will ask me to add a charging stop on the way if I won't make it. My previous BMW i3 did the same.
WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
I’m afraid these calculations are more tuned to sweetheart deals the car manufacturer has with the infrastructure owner than to my best interests.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  Tesla will 100% route to Tesla chargers, which is what you want to use right now. Maybe in 5 years it will be worth thinking about other brands.
mavhc 3y ago
My 10 year old EV has a button on the steering wheel that will show all the chargers it knows about within range. If planning a route using the built in satnav it will say "you won't make it, add a charging stop?" But there's so many chargers I don't even bother planning.

mark38848 3y ago

How can you have peace of mind whilst burning the only inhabitable planet for life as we know it?

lolive 3y ago
It brings peace of mind, it seems.
sgu999 3y ago
If you've been raised in a deeply individualistic culture, the collective well-being doesn't affect your peace of mind. And if you can afford to choose to own an EV, you and your descendants will likely be amongst the least impacted by climate change, migrations, and supply chain disruptions.
- skriticos2 3y ago
  Hah, so true. If you give up on your ICE now in one of the western democracies, it will be sold as a used car in your country first and continue being driven around by someone poorer, then eventually be shipped to Asia and be driven around there by even poorer people until it eventually goes to Africa and and be driven until it finally gives out. Getting a new EV and dumping the ICE won't change much on that in the short term. So what I want to say is, that poor people have better things to worry about than EVs and sustainability, like getting through the day with food on their plate and maybe a roof over their head. While they will be the most impacted, they can afford to care about it the least. Also, EVs right now just shift the problem around until we manage to produce electricity from renewable sources, which is still some way off, especially in the poor places that will drive the least efficient ICEs while they last.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    In France we have a "bonus for scrapyard" to avoid that [1]. You get an extra discount if you prove that the old car you're replacing is going to be removed from the road. I don't think it's well thought through given how broken the rating of cars is, but that's a step in the right direction I guess. > Also, EVs right now just shift the problem around until we manage to produce electricity from renewable sources Until we manage to actually reduce the amount of cars. The solution for transportation is quite clearly less and smaller vehicles, all EVs. [1] https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/prime-conversion https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/prime-conversion

dhanvee 3y ago

I think this depends a lot on the EV infrastructure around you. Driving an EV in the SF Bay Area is super convenient -- I know all the chargers off the top of my head and maintaining enough range is second nature to me now. I regularly road trip my Model 3 as well without any issues. I don't even look at the miles, just battery %. I recently got an ICE car for fun on the weekends and thinking about gas, oil changes, preventative maintenance, and repairs has been way more stressful than charging. Give the infrastructure a few years to catch up. Now that NACS has taken over in the US, things will only get better.

DoesntMatter22 3y ago
I live in super rural South New Jersey. Even here where I don't see many tesla there are plenty of super chargers.
cogman10 3y ago
Infrastructure is there, people just have a fixed notion of what the infrastructure looks like. Even our least populated states are littered with fast chargers alone highways and interstates. When I bought my model 3 in 2018, infrastructure was good enough in Idaho the meet my needs, though there were a few tight gaps. Now in 2024 the picture has dramatically changed with every route having excess charge capacity and options. Those down on EVs are having to come up with ever more convoluted scenarios and routes to justify why they aren't feasible. I literally saw one where a person posited they needed to drive from Edmonton to Winnipeg Canada every day during the winter and because an EV is a bad fit for that situation it's a bad fit for everyone.

aragilar 3y ago

I've not driven an EV, so I can't speak to that. But I have been in an ICE car that has run out of petrol (it was truly sitcom-worthy, with the infamous line "Don't worry, it always shows empty when it's got a 1/4 of a tank left" about a minute before the engine died), and this wasn't that far out from Sydney, and there are signs around here (east coast of AU) with how many km/minutes the next fuel stop is after the current one, so I'm not convinced that EV range concerns can't be managed in a similar way.

theshrike79 3y ago
They're usually managed even better. (Some) EVs are pretty good at estimating actual range and can automatically tell the driver where the nearest charging points are. The really good ones can also check if there are free slots in the chargers and optimise accordingly.
CaptWillard 3y ago
Eh, given the same set of parameters, I have trouble believing a driver who let an ICE car get that low on petrol would've taken the steps necessary to manage the battery charge for that trip. Also, the fuel consumption of an ICE is going to be much more consistent and predictable especially later in it's service life.
- aragilar 3y ago
  The missing context (which I skipped) was that they had two identical(ish, I couldn't tell the difference, they were the same model though) cars, and the other one did have that behaviour (having witnessed it), I suspect the cause was confusion about which car the different members of the family were using that day. It was also on the way back (so no-one was that stressed about it), so waiting to get back to Sydney would have given much cheaper petrol (NRMA came and gave us enough to get back out of the mountains after 30m).
Affric 3y ago
You never* run out of fuel twice though. *hyperbole

bartvk 3y ago

Which one did you drive?

Tor3 3y ago

When my ICE car is getting low on fuel, which happens quite often because the tank isn't that big and I tend to avoid filling up when the prices are high (they vary a lot here), I also have to micromanage the A/C and anything else, because they consume just as much energy as they do in an EV car, and that comes from the gasoline. It's most definitely not something I "don't have to care about". It's actually more of a concern because when my car is low on fuel it's very hard to know exactly how much is left - is it half a liter, two, or three? There are way fewer fueling stations than in the past, so getting there also takes fuel. At least with an EV I could have charged at home or at work or at the shopping mall.. well, I'll stay with my ICE car for a while more but that's because there are other good things about it which aren't yet available for EVs, but I do wish it was an EV.

zarkenfrood 3y ago
This is purely your behaviour though, the more general case is that most people dont have to micromanage their ICE vehicles or be concerned about range. Especially in the case where they are doing extended driving trips where even fuel can be scarce jerry cans are easy enough to pack.
- Tor3 3y ago
  But my point was that A/C and all electric appliances also affect fuel consumption of ICE cars, and if, for any reason, you're low on fuel you have to take that as much into consideration as with an EV car (except that it's often much harder to gauge how much you have left, with an ICE car).
  - NavinF 3y ago
    Of course the AC affects range on ICE cars, but nobody cares about that because there's always a gas station around the corner or at the next exit. You are the exception. That's what all the replies are trying to tell you
    - Tor3 3y ago

theonlybutlet 3y ago

Hah, if only you've seen me in my ICE car. Plenty of hoping and praying the glimmering fuel light doesn't die out and that I'll make it to the fuel station. No peace mind of mind.

nsteel 3y ago

Range anxiety is a short term condition, you get over it after surprisingly quickly. Then you just enjoy driving as normal. Managing charging is easy once you get used to it (in Europe, at least). Actual owners of modern EVs do not micromanage like you claim, you just don't need to. Personally I prefer paying almost nothing (in fuel) for a nicer drive with far less maintenance worries.

close04 3y ago
> Range anxiety is a short term condition > I prefer paying almost nothing (in fuel) Both of these look like very dependent on the personal situation. In my case I never really got over the winter induced anxiety (the range dropped severely for my expectations), combined with the lack of home charger, combined with high electricity costs, combined with the fact that I can walk, cycle, or take public transport for most of my needs. I eventually returned to a cheap, small, ICE car that I use occasionally but serves for peace of mind (it's there!) and makes me just as comfortable as an EV makes you. I wouldn't recommend to you a bicycle or even a small car because it's very important not to generalize to others based on my needs.
- nsteel 3y ago
  Did you have a heat pump? Did you have a car with 300 miles of summer range? The situation these days is far better than what it was but the infrastructure is still catching up to support those without home charging. That does make it more effort, I do not deny (I did it for a bit). Of course all transport ownership is dependent on personal situation. That really goes without saying, just look out the window! I didn't recommend anything, to do so would be daft. I simply do not believe range anxiety is still the problem it once was.
  - close04 3y ago
    > The situation these days I gave it up and switched back in November 2022. While I always keep my options open and an eye out for what makes sense for me, I haven't seen any signs that the situation is radically different in general. It certainly hasn't changed for me personally. > I simply do not believe range anxiety is still the problem it once was. Maybe but that says very little. If your waiter told they don't believe the soup contains anywhere near the amount of spit it once did you wouldn't feel encouraged. I'm happy if the situation is improving and if I still care about owning a car in the future I'll surely reassess if that critical threshold was reached. Anything short of that will get a "very good, keep up the good work" but not my money.

natch 3y ago

This will get better as the charging network gets built out more. And the experience is completely stress free in some cars with a good network today.