4 ms·

I was pretty dismayed that Gwynne Shotwell's actions were so blatantly egregious. I'd expect something like that (or probably worse) from Musk, but my view of S

I was pretty dismayed that Gwynne Shotwell's actions were so blatantly egregious. I'd expect something like that (or probably worse) from Musk, but my view of Shotwell was that she was always "the adult in the room" at SpaceX. So a bit sad to see that she didn't even realize the illegality of her actions (as other comments mentioned, all her actions were clearly put in writing).

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Keep in mind she answers to Musk, you can't assume she had the leeway in this instance, especially since he likely got a bee in his bonnet about it and took an uncompromising position.
- arrosenberg 3y ago
  Nuremberg defense. She could have quit.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    You've got to pick your battles, and let's face it, a well run and sensibly led SpaceX is a benefit to society (so far).
    - bjacobel 3y ago
      Is it? How've you benefited from the existence of SpaceX? I haven't.
    - danaris 3y ago
      This seems like an instance of "Something must be done; this is something, therefore it must be done"—more high-quality rocketry and space expertise clearly is a benefit to humanity, at least in the long term, but that doesn't necessarily mean that SpaceX in particular needs to be the organization to do it.
      - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
        Agreed, but they're pushing things forward. If we waited for Boeing or the like who are fed by fat, lazy government and military contracts things would never improve. Basically more (good) competition is better.
        danaris 3y ago
        ...In other words, "We need competition; SpaceX is competition, therefore we need SpaceX"?
    - arrosenberg 3y ago
      That's fine, but you don't get a pass. If you choose not to fight that battle, then you get to wear the outcome too - that's what was decided at Nuremberg as well.
- 93po 3y ago
  She has zero problem saying no to Musk and has countless times before
- throw0101d 3y ago
  > Keep in mind she answers to Musk She also answers to the laws of the society she lives in, which supersede and contractual obligations (or, rather, nullify them). I've read a book or two that interview/discuss-what the elderly and what regrets they've had about their life: one of the common ones is that they didn't live their life with as much as integrity as they'd like to.
perihelions 3y ago
The NLRB only collects tens of millions in fines, nationwide, per year [0]. Shotwell probably understood the illegality of her actions quite well—and more importantly understood that the benefits of chilling labor activism in a 30k-employee company far outweighed the miniscule costs. In support of this: Shotwell not only fired these employees, but made a loud spectacle out of it—emailing the entire company to announce their firing. This, deterrence, was the reason. [0] https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/the-nlrb-recovered-over-56-million-and-6307-workers-were-offered https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/the-nlrb-recov...
- hipadev23 3y ago
  What a goddamn joke. NLRB needs to be dissolved or given actual teeth to levy meaningful and impactful fines.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    I think your average Republican congressperson would rather be buried alive than have that happen.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    Just open it up to private lawsuits with punitive damages attached. Lawyers will be on these kind of slam-dunk cases instantly.
    - anomaly_ 3y ago
      100%. If you want behaviour changed with proper penalties, allow private enforcement of rights.
      - jwestbury 3y ago
        Or just give the government reasonable power to enforce things. GDPR, as an example, has been very effective, because the fines which can be levied for violations are genuinely impactful to businesses. The maximum fine is 4% of global annual revenue. Alphabet, for instance, could theoretically be liable for up to $11b, or around 20% of their net income. Amazon could be liable for up to $20b -- almost double their operating income (their 2022 net income was negative to begin with). As a result, GDPR is pretty well followed. As an American living in Europe, I have to use a VPN to access many of my American financial institutions, because they don't think the GDPR risk is worth it and have chosen to simply block access from Europe.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

Keep in mind she answers to Musk, you can't assume she had the leeway in this instance, especially since he likely got a bee in his bonnet about it and took an uncompromising position.

arrosenberg 3y ago
Nuremberg defense. She could have quit.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  You've got to pick your battles, and let's face it, a well run and sensibly led SpaceX is a benefit to society (so far).
  - bjacobel 3y ago
    Is it? How've you benefited from the existence of SpaceX? I haven't.
  - danaris 3y ago
    This seems like an instance of "Something must be done; this is something, therefore it must be done"—more high-quality rocketry and space expertise clearly is a benefit to humanity, at least in the long term, but that doesn't necessarily mean that SpaceX in particular needs to be the organization to do it.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      Agreed, but they're pushing things forward. If we waited for Boeing or the like who are fed by fat, lazy government and military contracts things would never improve. Basically more (good) competition is better.
      - danaris 3y ago
        ...In other words, "We need competition; SpaceX is competition, therefore we need SpaceX"?
  - arrosenberg 3y ago
    That's fine, but you don't get a pass. If you choose not to fight that battle, then you get to wear the outcome too - that's what was decided at Nuremberg as well.
93po 3y ago
She has zero problem saying no to Musk and has countless times before
throw0101d 3y ago
> Keep in mind she answers to Musk She also answers to the laws of the society she lives in, which supersede and contractual obligations (or, rather, nullify them). I've read a book or two that interview/discuss-what the elderly and what regrets they've had about their life: one of the common ones is that they didn't live their life with as much as integrity as they'd like to.

perihelions 3y ago

The NLRB only collects tens of millions in fines, nationwide, per year [0]. Shotwell probably understood the illegality of her actions quite well—and more importantly understood that the benefits of chilling labor activism in a 30k-employee company far outweighed the miniscule costs. In support of this: Shotwell not only fired these employees, but made a loud spectacle out of it—emailing the entire company to announce their firing. This, deterrence, was the reason. [0] https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/the-nlrb-recovered-over-56-million-and-6307-workers-were-offered https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/the-nlrb-recov...

hipadev23 3y ago
What a goddamn joke. NLRB needs to be dissolved or given actual teeth to levy meaningful and impactful fines.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  I think your average Republican congressperson would rather be buried alive than have that happen.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  Just open it up to private lawsuits with punitive damages attached. Lawyers will be on these kind of slam-dunk cases instantly.
  - anomaly_ 3y ago
    100%. If you want behaviour changed with proper penalties, allow private enforcement of rights.
    - jwestbury 3y ago
      Or just give the government reasonable power to enforce things. GDPR, as an example, has been very effective, because the fines which can be levied for violations are genuinely impactful to businesses. The maximum fine is 4% of global annual revenue. Alphabet, for instance, could theoretically be liable for up to $11b, or around 20% of their net income. Amazon could be liable for up to $20b -- almost double their operating income (their 2022 net income was negative to begin with). As a result, GDPR is pretty well followed. As an American living in Europe, I have to use a VPN to access many of my American financial institutions, because they don't think the GDPR risk is worth it and have chosen to simply block access from Europe.