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How impractical is it to rent a car for Dec 23 to Jan 1 if lots of other EV owners are doing the same thing? We're a happy one ICE, one EV family, but there's

How impractical is it to rent a car for Dec 23 to Jan 1 if lots of other EV owners are doing the same thing? We're a happy one ICE, one EV family, but there's no way in hell we could be all EV. Our Christmas road trip is 766 miles each way, and our gas car does it in about 11 hours of wall-clock time door-to-door, including the two fuel stops owing to that car having such a small gas tank. I just saw the ABRP link below, so I played around with it abit. In our 2015 Nissan LEAF, that becomes a 29 hour trip with 22 charging stops. Obviously, that's a dumb car to take on a road trip. In a Hyundai AWD Long Range, it's 14h02m with 5 charging stops. A Tesla M3LR shaves 28 minutes off that time, but still takes 23% longer than the sub-$5K 2005 Honda CR-V.

jandrewrogers 3y ago
This is the way. Currently have one ICE. Would probably buy an EV for a second. Too many things are too hard or too unsafe in an EV and renting can be a nightmare sometimes. I also think people forget what happened to rentals during COVID.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Can you name two of the "too many things" that are "too unsafe" about EVs?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I'm not GP, but the towing capacities of most EVs are pretty abysmal (in both weight and range), which is a factor in our selection. Finding one that can tow even 3000 lbs is uncommon and 6000 lbs or more puts you into the Rivian/Lightning/Hummer realm in EVs ($$$). Or any-old <$20K used half-ton or mid-size SUV can tow that all day long.
    - SEJeff 3y ago
      The Dual motor Cybertruck can tow 11,000 lbs. It also has a max range of up to 470 miles if you get the range extender.
      - itsoktocry 3y ago
        >The Dual motor Cybertruck can tow 11,000 lbs. It also has a max range of up to 470 miles if you get the range extender. Let's wait until we actually get some real world towing figures, shall we? Isn't Tesla currently involved in a scandal to cover up exaggerated range claims? https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba...
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        That counts as being in the Rivian/Lightning/Hummer realm.
  - jandrewrogers 3y ago
    Sure. You can be stranded in the middle of nowhere because a road is closed for many hours or days due to inclement weather or an accident and the detour is 100-200km beyond anticipated, with no charging possibility in between. Some parts of the mountain west have 200km between exits. Has happened to me multiple times. In some places and some times of the year, getting stranded legitimately risks exposure to the elements. You can find a road impassable because EVs almost universally have poor ground clearance. If a road is closed due to conditions, per the above, the alternatives that are remotely reasonable in terms of distance may require high ground clearance to safely traverse. Again, I have been able to circumvent road closures for various reasons because I had a high-clearance vehicle. There are parts of the US where I will not drive without one. Many years ago, I would routinely rescue people out of the Sierra Nevada in winter that had foolishly taken their (ICE) SUV on unplowed roads they were not equipped to traverse. You can die from exposure to the elements in that country, both winter and summer. An EV is much, much more poorly equipped for these types of environments. They were lucky I trawled for people on those roads (it was a hobby), they may not have been found for days. tl;dr: high ground clearance and robust reliable range are serious safety features in the mountain west. Lack of it may find you stranded for days in difficult survival environments. Same reason I also carry ample water when driving through the same areas, just in case.
    - SEJeff 3y ago
      > You can find a road impassable because EVs almost universally have poor ground clearance. Define: "poor ground clearance" Tesla Model 3: 5.2" Tesla Model S: 5-7" (in has a manually adjustable pneumatic suspension) Ford F150: 8-9.5" You can get bigger wheels for bigger clearances and you can also obviously put snow chains on Teslas as well. As of September 2023, 11.05% of new vehicle registrations in Colorado were electric. It has a lot of both mountains and snow. It depends on the specific model and how cold, but a Tesla generally speaking can keep the heat on for ~72 hours or so if it is not moving in the cold. I lived in Chicago and survived three polar vortexes (the worst was -22F in front of my house) and my Tesla did just fine.
      - jandrewrogers 3y ago
zamfi 3y ago
Yeah the LEAF is not a road tripping vehicle. In my experience (M3LR) you spend about 15-20 minutes charging every 2-3 hours. ABRP tells you how much time you spend charging, and otherwise assumes map drive time, which may not correspond to your “11 hours” depending on how aggressively you drive. How much longer it takes also depends on how long you’d stop anyway — rarely go more than 2-3 hours without stopping anyway, even when we road tripped in our ICE. A similar length trip (Sacramento to Seattle) takes 1h15m of charging for a 11h45m trip — about 10%. (23% seems high, but you may be making different assumptions, perhaps leaving with a low charge and having to arrive with a high charge.)
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I took whatever the ABRP defaults were. I noticed it started at 90% SoC, but I didn't look at any of the other settings [nor change any]. I still have the M3LR tab open. It says 11h42m drive and 1h32m charge. From my experience in the LEAF, 85 mph highway cruising gives a substantial range penalty, which I'm assuming is baked into a sensible charging route planner. Our ~11 hour actuals from this past trip were moving with a purpose, but not Cannonballing as a family of four in a 20 year old CR-V, averaging right around 70 mph door-to-door.
  - zamfi 3y ago
    Right, but isn’t 92 min / 702 min (11h42m) is a 13% increase, not 23%? (Also, ABRP by default adds 5 minutes “overhead” to charging stops — reasonable for non-superchargers were you have to futz with everything, but the supercharger overhead is frankly less than a gas station. Pull up, plug in, done.) I found the range penalty for going above 75 mph to be a weird thing…I typically target supercharger arrivals at 15%. If there’s…extra drag, let’s say…I might arrive around 10% or lower. But the battery charges really fast at that SoC, at least on the 250kW superchargers. If the extra drag gets me there 10-15 minutes sooner for a 2-hour segment, I’ll only see a charge penalty of 2-3 minutes. Of course, I’m only thinking about all this stuff because I love spreadsheets more than is reasonable; most people won’t, shouldn’t, and don’t have to bother!
    - 3y ago
standardUser 3y ago
Many people rent cars for these types of excursions to prevent wear-and-tear on their own cars.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  If you have a collector car or an unreliable car, I can see how that could make financial sense. If you have anything that people would describe as a "normal, reliable car", that does not seem like a money-saving move. 1600 miles of mostly highway usage is not particular stressful on a car.
  - cozzyd 3y ago
    Depending on your car, it could easily be 30 cents / mile in depreciation + maintenance costs. So that's "worth" $480. Depending on how long of a trip and the type of car, the rental may well be cheaper.
_ea1k 3y ago
Make sure that you set the speeds in abrp to your actual driving speeds. It sounds like you are doing ~85?

jandrewrogers 3y ago

This is the way. Currently have one ICE. Would probably buy an EV for a second. Too many things are too hard or too unsafe in an EV and renting can be a nightmare sometimes. I also think people forget what happened to rentals during COVID.

standardUser 3y ago
Can you name two of the "too many things" that are "too unsafe" about EVs?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I'm not GP, but the towing capacities of most EVs are pretty abysmal (in both weight and range), which is a factor in our selection. Finding one that can tow even 3000 lbs is uncommon and 6000 lbs or more puts you into the Rivian/Lightning/Hummer realm in EVs ($$$). Or any-old <$20K used half-ton or mid-size SUV can tow that all day long.
  - SEJeff 3y ago
    The Dual motor Cybertruck can tow 11,000 lbs. It also has a max range of up to 470 miles if you get the range extender.
    - itsoktocry 3y ago
      >The Dual motor Cybertruck can tow 11,000 lbs. It also has a max range of up to 470 miles if you get the range extender. Let's wait until we actually get some real world towing figures, shall we? Isn't Tesla currently involved in a scandal to cover up exaggerated range claims? https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba...
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      That counts as being in the Rivian/Lightning/Hummer realm.
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  Sure. You can be stranded in the middle of nowhere because a road is closed for many hours or days due to inclement weather or an accident and the detour is 100-200km beyond anticipated, with no charging possibility in between. Some parts of the mountain west have 200km between exits. Has happened to me multiple times. In some places and some times of the year, getting stranded legitimately risks exposure to the elements. You can find a road impassable because EVs almost universally have poor ground clearance. If a road is closed due to conditions, per the above, the alternatives that are remotely reasonable in terms of distance may require high ground clearance to safely traverse. Again, I have been able to circumvent road closures for various reasons because I had a high-clearance vehicle. There are parts of the US where I will not drive without one. Many years ago, I would routinely rescue people out of the Sierra Nevada in winter that had foolishly taken their (ICE) SUV on unplowed roads they were not equipped to traverse. You can die from exposure to the elements in that country, both winter and summer. An EV is much, much more poorly equipped for these types of environments. They were lucky I trawled for people on those roads (it was a hobby), they may not have been found for days. tl;dr: high ground clearance and robust reliable range are serious safety features in the mountain west. Lack of it may find you stranded for days in difficult survival environments. Same reason I also carry ample water when driving through the same areas, just in case.
  - SEJeff 3y ago
    > You can find a road impassable because EVs almost universally have poor ground clearance. Define: "poor ground clearance" Tesla Model 3: 5.2" Tesla Model S: 5-7" (in has a manually adjustable pneumatic suspension) Ford F150: 8-9.5" You can get bigger wheels for bigger clearances and you can also obviously put snow chains on Teslas as well. As of September 2023, 11.05% of new vehicle registrations in Colorado were electric. It has a lot of both mountains and snow. It depends on the specific model and how cold, but a Tesla generally speaking can keep the heat on for ~72 hours or so if it is not moving in the cold. I lived in Chicago and survived three polar vortexes (the worst was -22F in front of my house) and my Tesla did just fine.
    - jandrewrogers 3y ago

zamfi 3y ago

Yeah the LEAF is not a road tripping vehicle. In my experience (M3LR) you spend about 15-20 minutes charging every 2-3 hours. ABRP tells you how much time you spend charging, and otherwise assumes map drive time, which may not correspond to your “11 hours” depending on how aggressively you drive. How much longer it takes also depends on how long you’d stop anyway — rarely go more than 2-3 hours without stopping anyway, even when we road tripped in our ICE. A similar length trip (Sacramento to Seattle) takes 1h15m of charging for a 11h45m trip — about 10%. (23% seems high, but you may be making different assumptions, perhaps leaving with a low charge and having to arrive with a high charge.)

sokoloff 3y ago
I took whatever the ABRP defaults were. I noticed it started at 90% SoC, but I didn't look at any of the other settings [nor change any]. I still have the M3LR tab open. It says 11h42m drive and 1h32m charge. From my experience in the LEAF, 85 mph highway cruising gives a substantial range penalty, which I'm assuming is baked into a sensible charging route planner. Our ~11 hour actuals from this past trip were moving with a purpose, but not Cannonballing as a family of four in a 20 year old CR-V, averaging right around 70 mph door-to-door.
- zamfi 3y ago
  Right, but isn’t 92 min / 702 min (11h42m) is a 13% increase, not 23%? (Also, ABRP by default adds 5 minutes “overhead” to charging stops — reasonable for non-superchargers were you have to futz with everything, but the supercharger overhead is frankly less than a gas station. Pull up, plug in, done.) I found the range penalty for going above 75 mph to be a weird thing…I typically target supercharger arrivals at 15%. If there’s…extra drag, let’s say…I might arrive around 10% or lower. But the battery charges really fast at that SoC, at least on the 250kW superchargers. If the extra drag gets me there 10-15 minutes sooner for a 2-hour segment, I’ll only see a charge penalty of 2-3 minutes. Of course, I’m only thinking about all this stuff because I love spreadsheets more than is reasonable; most people won’t, shouldn’t, and don’t have to bother!
  - 3y ago

standardUser 3y ago

Many people rent cars for these types of excursions to prevent wear-and-tear on their own cars.

sokoloff 3y ago
If you have a collector car or an unreliable car, I can see how that could make financial sense. If you have anything that people would describe as a "normal, reliable car", that does not seem like a money-saving move. 1600 miles of mostly highway usage is not particular stressful on a car.
- cozzyd 3y ago
  Depending on your car, it could easily be 30 cents / mile in depreciation + maintenance costs. So that's "worth" $480. Depending on how long of a trip and the type of car, the rental may well be cheaper.

_ea1k 3y ago

Make sure that you set the speeds in abrp to your actual driving speeds. It sounds like you are doing ~85?