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The last time I bought a personal vehicle (2022) I did some math. I drive X miles a year, I pay Y for gas, I pay Z for electricity. I then compared some vehicl

The last time I bought a personal vehicle (2022) I did some math. I drive X miles a year, I pay Y for gas, I pay Z for electricity. I then compared some vehicles in the segment that fits my needs and found the ICE options to have a significantly lower cost of ownership for the 8-10 years I expect to operate the vehicle. So I left the extra 15 grand in stock, which will see a much higher rate of return than an EV would have. It's not even Joe Schmoe that's looking at the up front costs. I don't think EVs pencil out as profitable for people that aren't doing more than average amounts of driving. For someone borrowing for the car I cannot image ever getting ahead compared to traditional vehicles if you get $10k-20k more into debt at 6%apr for 60 months. That's an additional $3500-7000 in interest which buys you a lot of oil changes and gasoline. I guess I'll do the math again in 2031 when it's time to start looking at a more modern car and see if they are a good deal or not.

unglaublich 3y ago
The motivation behind choosing an EV is not because it's cheaper. People like the features, low pollution, low noise, the imagine, etc. Buying a car is very often not about making the best financial decision. E.g. in Europe, SUVs are now the most popular car model, even though they are more expensive, use more fuel, are more dangerous, noisy, polluting, etc.
- yurishimo 3y ago
  Which I find crazy tbh (that they are so popular). Especially in Western Europe where vehicle taxes are crazy (imo). Here in the Netherlands, you could be paying €100/mo for a "midsize" SUV just in taxes. That's nothing to say about the cost of fuel, insurance, and maintenance. I understand why they are priced that way, and perhaps it is my expat bubble in NL specifically, but with the cost of public transportation the way that it is, I'm not sure how they expect to keep raising vehicle taxes without also making public transportation more affordable.
theshrike79 3y ago
I bought an EV because it needs way less regular maintenance. I don't need to do oil changes or replace parts at an interval defined by the manufacturer. I don't even need to go to a gas station. And every time I leave home, I've got a full tank, charged with cheap electricity. And as a bonus it's really comfortable to drive, including having the ability to keep itself cool/warm even when the engine is not running. IF I went purely by numbers the best choice would've been to buy a 2000€ car drive it until it breaks down. Then just call a taxi for the rest of the trip and buy a new similar one online for the next day. I could've bought 20 shitty cars for the price of my EV. But that's stress I don't want in my life.
- 2rsf 3y ago
  Maintenance, planned and breakage, is a huge differentiator in favor of EVs- there are simply less moving parts and the EV ones are usually simpler and more reliable.
  - staringback 3y ago
    fewer*
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    There is no question that the electric motor is the future. The only question is that how do we transport the power for it, currently it's batteries but in the future it might be something else. I'm personally wondering why more companies don't do range extender trucks for long hauls. Electric drivetrain with insane torque and long maintenance intervals. Add a small to medium sized battery. Plug in a diesel generator that can always work at 100% optimal RPM to produce maximum output to charge the battery. (Edison Motors[0] is doing some amazing work in this space, but they're a small player) [0] https://www.edisonmotors.ca https://www.edisonmotors.ca
- jliptzin 3y ago
  Same, going on 5 years now, still only had to get my tires replaced. It’s been night and day compared to my last vehicle that always had something breaking for >$1,000 and I definitely don’t miss gas stations
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
A site from MIT that lets you do these calculations, and has presets for state incentives, gas costs etc: https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore It's always been true that people who drive a lot every day are the low hanging fruit for EVs. EVs are more efficient when in motion, but most cars spend a lot of their time parked. But in most places prices have continually dropped so the people who will save has expanded. (Not checked to see if recent battery sourcing changes are included but either way it's still illustrative if the big picture.)
- gamepsys 3y ago
  I like to look at these types of calculators to make sure I am considering all the important parameters but I never use them to do the actual calculations. I have found too many that either don't consider all the parameters I want, aren't configurable enough, and some that are simply incorrectly implemented. One example of this specific calculator is that it compares all vehicles in the same graph, and all vehicles use the same parameters. However, not every vehicle actually has the same parameters. For example, the resell value of different brands varies significantly. The maintenance cost of different brands varies significantly. I don't want to be too harsh on this because it does provide some value and seems to be implemented by a well meaning student. I just would never suggest someone use it to actual compare the cost of ownership of different vehicles. EDIT: Another thing that's hard to model is road trips. During which time gas prices fluctuate and electricity prices shot up.
jliptzin 3y ago
You’re valuing your own time at $0/hr that is spent at gas stations, doing oil changes and other ICE maintenance, unless you have a personal assistant to do that stuff for you. My calculation was 15 minutes/week for gas, 1 hour every 3 months for oil changes, and 1 hour a month on average dealing with other ICE problems (for instance I had a water pump failure cause my engine to overheat on a busy highway, had to wait 2 hours for a tow truck waiting in a dangerous location, then took another 2 hours to finally get home). So that’s ~30 hours of my time per year. I value my own free time at $300/hr so even at a much higher initial cost an EV still made sense to me.
- GiorgioG 3y ago
  Where in the world does it take 15 minutes to fill up a tank of gas? You change your oil every 3 months? Are you driving 20,000+ miles per year? 1 hour per month on ICE problems? What are you driving, a 1985 Pontiac Skylark? My parents' 2003 Camry has never had a single mechanical problem. Sometimes you just want something and that's OK...but your calculations are not based in reality.
  - foobarian 3y ago
    The 2014 Ford Escape I had before my current EV was actually worse than his calculations. I'm glad your parents' Camry was reliable but my experience was not good. 1 hour per month is amortized. My last car ended up in the shop for several days. It's not several days of my time but dealing with renting a replacement and coordinating the drop-off took me half a day, and this happened more than once. I ended up burning a vacation day on it which was pretty frustrating.
    - GiorgioG 3y ago
      https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2023/11/electric-vehicles-are-improving-but-charging-and-battery-issues-persist-in-consumer-reports-2023-annual-auto-reliability-survey/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... I guess I'm just not buying that current EVs are more reliable than ICEs.
Symbiote 3y ago
Frankly I'd question why anyone who drives less-than-average is looking at buying a new car, of any type.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Because if you’re putting modest mileage on a vehicle you probably don’t need to worry much about maintenance beyond a once a year maybe scheduled visit to the dealer for a long time. That’s worth a lot to Me.
- rchaud 3y ago
  the supply of used cars isn't what it used to be post-covid. Some people end up leasing a new car simply because their used car search was extremely slim pickings.
  - BirAdam 3y ago
    Didn't lease, but did buy new due to this factor. I was looking for a rather modest, cheap, reliable, used sedan. Prices were all well over $14/$15k (for a 2015-2017, and nearly the cost of new after that). At that point, it made sense to look at a new Kia/Hyundai in the lower price range and gain a decade's worth of warranty.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    > Some people end up leasing a new car When in a conversation about keeping car expenses low, mentioning leasing seems like a bizarre thing to do. My understanding is that a lease price is essentially the purchase price minus the expected value at the end of the lease (Plus a few dollars for profits). ie, A $50,000 car that's expected to be worth $30,000 after 3 years might have you pay $25,000 over the course of the 3 years, which would be about $695/mo. But frequently, in reality, I would see such a car being leased for $750/month with $3,000 due at signing or some shit. Every time I see lease offers, I do the math and they seem like an incredibly bad deal. Even if the lease expenses are a business tax deduction, I don't see how in the long term it ends up a better deal than buying new over the course of 10 years.

unglaublich 3y ago

The motivation behind choosing an EV is not because it's cheaper. People like the features, low pollution, low noise, the imagine, etc. Buying a car is very often not about making the best financial decision. E.g. in Europe, SUVs are now the most popular car model, even though they are more expensive, use more fuel, are more dangerous, noisy, polluting, etc.

yurishimo 3y ago
Which I find crazy tbh (that they are so popular). Especially in Western Europe where vehicle taxes are crazy (imo). Here in the Netherlands, you could be paying €100/mo for a "midsize" SUV just in taxes. That's nothing to say about the cost of fuel, insurance, and maintenance. I understand why they are priced that way, and perhaps it is my expat bubble in NL specifically, but with the cost of public transportation the way that it is, I'm not sure how they expect to keep raising vehicle taxes without also making public transportation more affordable.

theshrike79 3y ago

I bought an EV because it needs way less regular maintenance. I don't need to do oil changes or replace parts at an interval defined by the manufacturer. I don't even need to go to a gas station. And every time I leave home, I've got a full tank, charged with cheap electricity. And as a bonus it's really comfortable to drive, including having the ability to keep itself cool/warm even when the engine is not running. IF I went purely by numbers the best choice would've been to buy a 2000€ car drive it until it breaks down. Then just call a taxi for the rest of the trip and buy a new similar one online for the next day. I could've bought 20 shitty cars for the price of my EV. But that's stress I don't want in my life.

2rsf 3y ago
Maintenance, planned and breakage, is a huge differentiator in favor of EVs- there are simply less moving parts and the EV ones are usually simpler and more reliable.
- staringback 3y ago
  fewer*
- theshrike79 3y ago
  There is no question that the electric motor is the future. The only question is that how do we transport the power for it, currently it's batteries but in the future it might be something else. I'm personally wondering why more companies don't do range extender trucks for long hauls. Electric drivetrain with insane torque and long maintenance intervals. Add a small to medium sized battery. Plug in a diesel generator that can always work at 100% optimal RPM to produce maximum output to charge the battery. (Edison Motors[0] is doing some amazing work in this space, but they're a small player) [0] https://www.edisonmotors.ca https://www.edisonmotors.ca
jliptzin 3y ago
Same, going on 5 years now, still only had to get my tires replaced. It’s been night and day compared to my last vehicle that always had something breaking for >$1,000 and I definitely don’t miss gas stations

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

A site from MIT that lets you do these calculations, and has presets for state incentives, gas costs etc: https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore It's always been true that people who drive a lot every day are the low hanging fruit for EVs. EVs are more efficient when in motion, but most cars spend a lot of their time parked. But in most places prices have continually dropped so the people who will save has expanded. (Not checked to see if recent battery sourcing changes are included but either way it's still illustrative if the big picture.)

gamepsys 3y ago
I like to look at these types of calculators to make sure I am considering all the important parameters but I never use them to do the actual calculations. I have found too many that either don't consider all the parameters I want, aren't configurable enough, and some that are simply incorrectly implemented. One example of this specific calculator is that it compares all vehicles in the same graph, and all vehicles use the same parameters. However, not every vehicle actually has the same parameters. For example, the resell value of different brands varies significantly. The maintenance cost of different brands varies significantly. I don't want to be too harsh on this because it does provide some value and seems to be implemented by a well meaning student. I just would never suggest someone use it to actual compare the cost of ownership of different vehicles. EDIT: Another thing that's hard to model is road trips. During which time gas prices fluctuate and electricity prices shot up.

jliptzin 3y ago

You’re valuing your own time at $0/hr that is spent at gas stations, doing oil changes and other ICE maintenance, unless you have a personal assistant to do that stuff for you. My calculation was 15 minutes/week for gas, 1 hour every 3 months for oil changes, and 1 hour a month on average dealing with other ICE problems (for instance I had a water pump failure cause my engine to overheat on a busy highway, had to wait 2 hours for a tow truck waiting in a dangerous location, then took another 2 hours to finally get home). So that’s ~30 hours of my time per year. I value my own free time at $300/hr so even at a much higher initial cost an EV still made sense to me.

GiorgioG 3y ago
Where in the world does it take 15 minutes to fill up a tank of gas? You change your oil every 3 months? Are you driving 20,000+ miles per year? 1 hour per month on ICE problems? What are you driving, a 1985 Pontiac Skylark? My parents' 2003 Camry has never had a single mechanical problem. Sometimes you just want something and that's OK...but your calculations are not based in reality.
- foobarian 3y ago
  The 2014 Ford Escape I had before my current EV was actually worse than his calculations. I'm glad your parents' Camry was reliable but my experience was not good. 1 hour per month is amortized. My last car ended up in the shop for several days. It's not several days of my time but dealing with renting a replacement and coordinating the drop-off took me half a day, and this happened more than once. I ended up burning a vacation day on it which was pretty frustrating.
  - GiorgioG 3y ago
    https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2023/11/electric-vehicles-are-improving-but-charging-and-battery-issues-persist-in-consumer-reports-2023-annual-auto-reliability-survey/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... I guess I'm just not buying that current EVs are more reliable than ICEs.

Symbiote 3y ago

Frankly I'd question why anyone who drives less-than-average is looking at buying a new car, of any type.

ghaff 3y ago
Because if you’re putting modest mileage on a vehicle you probably don’t need to worry much about maintenance beyond a once a year maybe scheduled visit to the dealer for a long time. That’s worth a lot to Me.
rchaud 3y ago
the supply of used cars isn't what it used to be post-covid. Some people end up leasing a new car simply because their used car search was extremely slim pickings.
- BirAdam 3y ago
  Didn't lease, but did buy new due to this factor. I was looking for a rather modest, cheap, reliable, used sedan. Prices were all well over $14/$15k (for a 2015-2017, and nearly the cost of new after that). At that point, it made sense to look at a new Kia/Hyundai in the lower price range and gain a decade's worth of warranty.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  > Some people end up leasing a new car When in a conversation about keeping car expenses low, mentioning leasing seems like a bizarre thing to do. My understanding is that a lease price is essentially the purchase price minus the expected value at the end of the lease (Plus a few dollars for profits). ie, A $50,000 car that's expected to be worth $30,000 after 3 years might have you pay $25,000 over the course of the 3 years, which would be about $695/mo. But frequently, in reality, I would see such a car being leased for $750/month with $3,000 due at signing or some shit. Every time I see lease offers, I do the math and they seem like an incredibly bad deal. Even if the lease expenses are a business tax deduction, I don't see how in the long term it ends up a better deal than buying new over the course of 10 years.