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> [edit: after reading felonintexas let me update this. If someone point blank asks, tell them. Don’t volunteer this information. There is nothing to be gained]

> [edit: after reading felonintexas let me update this. If someone point blank asks, tell them. Don’t volunteer this information. There is nothing to be gained] My Fraternity's cook, when I was in college, was a former fellon. He worked for us for a few years before he told me about his background. I don't remember the details, but we had a conversation where he mentioned he had experience in IT. Eventually he very briefly mentioned some high level details about his criminal record when the conversation drifted around "so if you were making big bucks, why are you now cooking for us?" I personally appreciate that he warned me about the consequences of the super-illegal (but "grey morality") thing he did. But, I must agree, it's best to keep things like a record quiet as long as possible. I don't know if other fraternity brothers knew about his background. It seems like the kind of thing that would be kept quiet until someone started veering into the super-illegal (but "grey morality") area that got our cook in trouble.

busyant 3y ago
> the super-illegal (but "grey morality") thing he did I'm curious to know what he did given your description. I can think of examples of the reverse: quasi-illegal, but quite immoral.
- WatchDog 3y ago
  Not the parent commenter, but I would imagine something involving narcotics.
- smsm42 3y ago
  Drugs? Contraband? Tax evasion? Insider trading? Industrial espionage? Any process crime like "lying to a fed"? If you think about it, we have tons of laws that don't fit into the mold of "hurting specific people" - which would definitely be "black morality" to me - but are more of either "preserving the system as it is" or even "we said it's illegal and so it is". I'm not saying none of those should exist, but I definitely would be willing to look onto some of it as a morally "gray area".
  - kridsdale1 3y ago
    It could be “allowed a very hardy and aggressive weed to grow in an area of his property”.
  - throwup238 3y ago
    I agree, I just wouldn’t trust a felon to make an unbiased determination about the morality of their actions. The only item on your list that I would say is mostly gray area is insider trading - the rest are very much case dependent. A weed dealer might be gray area but someone who peddles crack cocaine is not. Most people like to think they are good, even when presented with hard evidence that they’re not.
    - SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
      > I just wouldn’t trust a felon to make an unbiased determination about the morality of their actions. I wouldn't trust a single human to be objective about the morality of their actions
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      Why is a weed dealer a gray area but cocaine not a gray area both are things people are consuming voluntarily into their own body why is one prohibited from consuming cocaine of their own volition but not marijuana I'm of the position it all drugs even medical drugs should be free to consume by anybody I should be able to walk in to CVS and get heart medication if I want or cocaine if I want if CVS is willing to sell it to me it's not for the government to decide nor government licensed agents AKA doctors to decide what I consume into my own body My body my choice
      - throwup238 3y ago
        I didn’t just say cocaine, I said crack cocaine. Crack is cooked by the dealers to be a cheaper and more addictive form of cocaine. I saw first hand what it did to LA in the back half of the last century, so yeah “your body your choice” or whatever you want to tell yourself, but the people dealing it knew what they were doing and it was blatantly immoral. There was no “gray area” about it. They invented a more profitable formula and destroyed their communities to make a little more cash.
- btilly 3y ago
  I indirectly know someone who fits this description. (Friend of a friend, wouldn't be able to track down.) Was part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology, got caught, went to jail. Yeah, super-illegal. But was it immoral? If you don't know anything about the shady stuff that Scientology did, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QsCrFANMzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QsCrFANMzc is a great video to start with.
- sofixa 3y ago
  I can think of stuff like hacking/leaking data about bad things, like a Snowden/Manning/Assange scenario. Or working on/around piracy (cracking software to bypass license checks, hosting a torrent website, etc.).
  - busyant 3y ago
    > I can think of stuff like hacking/leaking data about bad things, l I wasn't thinking in that direction, but that totally makes sense. Thanks.
hluska 3y ago
Why did you let the conversation drift around to “if you were making big bucks why are you cooking for us now”? That’s a remarkably rude thing to ask for absolutely no reason other than ego.
- unclad5968 3y ago
  Seems normal to me
- dgfitz 3y ago
  You’ve never chatted up a bartender where they end up telling you personal things after years? Maybe after they’ve served you food and beverage for a long time, you bond over X (sports, politics, whatever) and end up feeling like friends? I hafta say, it seems like you’re the one with the ego. Edit: if I had to guess, the cook probably said something like “I made a lot more money before I worked here.” And was then asked why.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  This my friends is the danger of making judgements without context.
- ryaniscool 3y ago
  It's not rude at all. First, the commenter could have been paraphrasing a longer conversation that led to that question. Second, the "I used to be somebody" conversation is more common than you think. Asking "If you were somebody, what happened?" is usually the question that is being invited to be asked if someone brings up this topic.
- bombcar 3y ago
  If you were talking with a friend, and you learned he used to make millions on Wall Street, you’d not even think of considering asking why he gave it up?
- davidwritesbugs 3y ago
  Not rude at all. I used to make several million a year. Then I got arrested and bank accounts frozen. I had to work stacking shelves in a supermarket. All my colleagues thought I was a BS artist when I said what I used to earn, and asked that question. Why wouldn't they? it's incongruous.

busyant 3y ago

> the super-illegal (but "grey morality") thing he did I'm curious to know what he did given your description. I can think of examples of the reverse: quasi-illegal, but quite immoral.

WatchDog 3y ago
Not the parent commenter, but I would imagine something involving narcotics.
smsm42 3y ago
Drugs? Contraband? Tax evasion? Insider trading? Industrial espionage? Any process crime like "lying to a fed"? If you think about it, we have tons of laws that don't fit into the mold of "hurting specific people" - which would definitely be "black morality" to me - but are more of either "preserving the system as it is" or even "we said it's illegal and so it is". I'm not saying none of those should exist, but I definitely would be willing to look onto some of it as a morally "gray area".
- kridsdale1 3y ago
  It could be “allowed a very hardy and aggressive weed to grow in an area of his property”.
- throwup238 3y ago
  I agree, I just wouldn’t trust a felon to make an unbiased determination about the morality of their actions. The only item on your list that I would say is mostly gray area is insider trading - the rest are very much case dependent. A weed dealer might be gray area but someone who peddles crack cocaine is not. Most people like to think they are good, even when presented with hard evidence that they’re not.
  - SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
    > I just wouldn’t trust a felon to make an unbiased determination about the morality of their actions. I wouldn't trust a single human to be objective about the morality of their actions
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    Why is a weed dealer a gray area but cocaine not a gray area both are things people are consuming voluntarily into their own body why is one prohibited from consuming cocaine of their own volition but not marijuana I'm of the position it all drugs even medical drugs should be free to consume by anybody I should be able to walk in to CVS and get heart medication if I want or cocaine if I want if CVS is willing to sell it to me it's not for the government to decide nor government licensed agents AKA doctors to decide what I consume into my own body My body my choice
    - throwup238 3y ago
      I didn’t just say cocaine, I said crack cocaine. Crack is cooked by the dealers to be a cheaper and more addictive form of cocaine. I saw first hand what it did to LA in the back half of the last century, so yeah “your body your choice” or whatever you want to tell yourself, but the people dealing it knew what they were doing and it was blatantly immoral. There was no “gray area” about it. They invented a more profitable formula and destroyed their communities to make a little more cash.
btilly 3y ago
I indirectly know someone who fits this description. (Friend of a friend, wouldn't be able to track down.) Was part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology, got caught, went to jail. Yeah, super-illegal. But was it immoral? If you don't know anything about the shady stuff that Scientology did, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QsCrFANMzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QsCrFANMzc is a great video to start with.
sofixa 3y ago
I can think of stuff like hacking/leaking data about bad things, like a Snowden/Manning/Assange scenario. Or working on/around piracy (cracking software to bypass license checks, hosting a torrent website, etc.).
- busyant 3y ago
  > I can think of stuff like hacking/leaking data about bad things, l I wasn't thinking in that direction, but that totally makes sense. Thanks.

hluska 3y ago

Why did you let the conversation drift around to “if you were making big bucks why are you cooking for us now”? That’s a remarkably rude thing to ask for absolutely no reason other than ego.

unclad5968 3y ago
Seems normal to me
dgfitz 3y ago
You’ve never chatted up a bartender where they end up telling you personal things after years? Maybe after they’ve served you food and beverage for a long time, you bond over X (sports, politics, whatever) and end up feeling like friends? I hafta say, it seems like you’re the one with the ego. Edit: if I had to guess, the cook probably said something like “I made a lot more money before I worked here.” And was then asked why.
operatingthetan 3y ago
This my friends is the danger of making judgements without context.
ryaniscool 3y ago
It's not rude at all. First, the commenter could have been paraphrasing a longer conversation that led to that question. Second, the "I used to be somebody" conversation is more common than you think. Asking "If you were somebody, what happened?" is usually the question that is being invited to be asked if someone brings up this topic.
bombcar 3y ago
If you were talking with a friend, and you learned he used to make millions on Wall Street, you’d not even think of considering asking why he gave it up?
davidwritesbugs 3y ago
Not rude at all. I used to make several million a year. Then I got arrested and bank accounts frozen. I had to work stacking shelves in a supermarket. All my colleagues thought I was a BS artist when I said what I used to earn, and asked that question. Why wouldn't they? it's incongruous.