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A lot of common talking points from the anti-EV FUD going around - EVs are heavier, sales are going down (even though they're not, according to the data present

A lot of common talking points from the anti-EV FUD going around - EVs are heavier, sales are going down (even though they're not, according to the data presented in the article), EVs don't have enough range. Ask an EV owner and they don't care. It's almost like there might be vested corporate interests (say, Big Oil?) pushing a narrative here? https://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html https://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

BobaFloutist 3y ago
Someone does need to pay to maintain the roads, however, and if ICEs become a smaller and smaller part of cars on the roads, the gas tax will cover less and less of the cost (and they already don't fully cover the costs of road maintenance).
- nostrademons 3y ago
  Somehow this wasn't an issue when it was everybody switching from compact hatchbacks to SUVs and pickups, which is a similar weight increase as going from an ICE to EV sedan. (In practice, what happened is that nobody bothered to pay for the increase in road maintenance and we just live with poorly maintained roads now.)
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    I'm ignoring the weight increase, just saying that people that only own EVs will not pay the gas tax, and will therefore contribute far less to the cost of road maintenance. There's a similar shifting dynamic in solar power, where much of the cost of utilities is actually for distribution and maintenance, and as long as you're connected to the grid you're contributing to that cost, but to encourage people to use less power more of the cost is priced into the $/kWh price, which all breaks down when you're generating most of your own power but still using the grid. It's an interesting economic problem, and I don't think there are any super obviously "fair" solutions right away.
    - nostrademons 3y ago
      Oh, that's true. Oftentimes these are ways of shifting costs from people inside the new market to people in the old market. This actually accelerates adoption of new technology, because not only do you reap the benefits, but you offload the externalities onto people who haven't switched yet, incentivizing them to switch. I can think of a lot of examples, eg. Internet media destroyed the monopoly of old media, which made it uneconomical to do serious investigative journalism, which further reduced the quality of old-line media, which accelerated the switch to Internet media. Private/magnet/charter schools brain-drain the best students out of public schools, which decreases the quality of instruction, which means that you need to start looking at private/magnet/charter schools if you want your kid to have a decent education. Automobiles incentivized the creation of road networks and parking lots, which took up so much space that you can no longer walk anywhere, which requires that you get a car. Usually it results in the total destruction of the old industry, and then the new industry develops some taxation/regulation scheme to cover common goods within the new technology regime.
    - pests 3y ago
      In Michigan registration for a Tesla is near $1000 so that def makes up for some of it
      - BobaFloutist 3y ago
        A little bit, but I doubt that'll be enough to maintain roads if ICE cars go the way of the dinosaurs.
        asadotzler 3y ago
        By the time this is a concern, our elected and institutional government workers will have figured out how to take the tax out of charging stations or car sales or whatever.
    - zip1234 3y ago
      Seeing as only 41% of road costs are paid for by license + fuel taxes, those EV owners are already paying for more than half the cost of the roads through state/federal income taxes.
- zip1234 3y ago
  In the US gas/fuel taxes cover only 41% of road costs. All usage fees together is 55%.
- ccheney 3y ago
  Many states are already addressing this by imposing additional fees on EVs. For example, states like California, Minnesota, Illinois, and Texas have implemented annual fees for EV owners, which are specifically designed to offset the loss in gas tax revenue and contribute to road maintenance. In my state (MN) I'm actually paying more in annual EV fees/taxes then if I drove an ICE vehicle of comparable value

BobaFloutist 3y ago

Someone does need to pay to maintain the roads, however, and if ICEs become a smaller and smaller part of cars on the roads, the gas tax will cover less and less of the cost (and they already don't fully cover the costs of road maintenance).

nostrademons 3y ago
Somehow this wasn't an issue when it was everybody switching from compact hatchbacks to SUVs and pickups, which is a similar weight increase as going from an ICE to EV sedan. (In practice, what happened is that nobody bothered to pay for the increase in road maintenance and we just live with poorly maintained roads now.)
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  I'm ignoring the weight increase, just saying that people that only own EVs will not pay the gas tax, and will therefore contribute far less to the cost of road maintenance. There's a similar shifting dynamic in solar power, where much of the cost of utilities is actually for distribution and maintenance, and as long as you're connected to the grid you're contributing to that cost, but to encourage people to use less power more of the cost is priced into the $/kWh price, which all breaks down when you're generating most of your own power but still using the grid. It's an interesting economic problem, and I don't think there are any super obviously "fair" solutions right away.
  - nostrademons 3y ago
    Oh, that's true. Oftentimes these are ways of shifting costs from people inside the new market to people in the old market. This actually accelerates adoption of new technology, because not only do you reap the benefits, but you offload the externalities onto people who haven't switched yet, incentivizing them to switch. I can think of a lot of examples, eg. Internet media destroyed the monopoly of old media, which made it uneconomical to do serious investigative journalism, which further reduced the quality of old-line media, which accelerated the switch to Internet media. Private/magnet/charter schools brain-drain the best students out of public schools, which decreases the quality of instruction, which means that you need to start looking at private/magnet/charter schools if you want your kid to have a decent education. Automobiles incentivized the creation of road networks and parking lots, which took up so much space that you can no longer walk anywhere, which requires that you get a car. Usually it results in the total destruction of the old industry, and then the new industry develops some taxation/regulation scheme to cover common goods within the new technology regime.
  - pests 3y ago
    In Michigan registration for a Tesla is near $1000 so that def makes up for some of it
    - BobaFloutist 3y ago
      A little bit, but I doubt that'll be enough to maintain roads if ICE cars go the way of the dinosaurs.
      - asadotzler 3y ago
        By the time this is a concern, our elected and institutional government workers will have figured out how to take the tax out of charging stations or car sales or whatever.
  - zip1234 3y ago
    Seeing as only 41% of road costs are paid for by license + fuel taxes, those EV owners are already paying for more than half the cost of the roads through state/federal income taxes.
zip1234 3y ago
In the US gas/fuel taxes cover only 41% of road costs. All usage fees together is 55%.
ccheney 3y ago
Many states are already addressing this by imposing additional fees on EVs. For example, states like California, Minnesota, Illinois, and Texas have implemented annual fees for EV owners, which are specifically designed to offset the loss in gas tax revenue and contribute to road maintenance. In my state (MN) I'm actually paying more in annual EV fees/taxes then if I drove an ICE vehicle of comparable value