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> Virtually no (offline) stores sell devices with Linux. I did not specify offline, I was mainly catching Windows as an individually purchasable product. > Be

> Virtually no (offline) stores sell devices with Linux. I did not specify offline, I was mainly catching Windows as an individually purchasable product. > Being downloadloadable doesn’t imply compatibility with all the hardware in the world. I did not say that it does, but there are plenty of distros that strive to be a consumer desktop OS, and part of that effort is working with a broad range of hardware, and for me they continually fail. I would rather install an OS where all my hardware works and then I can tweak it to behave the way I want than install an OS where the hardware doesn’t work and I still spend my time tweaking it to behave the way I want. Even ignoring hardware support and things like sleep and hibernate, every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup than I do getting rid of the things they complain about in Windows. It is fine to have a preference, there’s no perfect OS for everyone, but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. There are valid reasons for tech literate users to consciously choose Windows over Linux.

fsflover 3y ago
First, I never tweaked the suspend or hibernate on my laptops and they always've been working flawlessly (Librem 14 and 15). > every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup You were asking wrong people perhaps. My non-technical relatives are just using Linux for their tasks and don't even know what a console is. People who like tweaking, do it. It's definitely easier on Linux anyway. > but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. Most people are unaware that subjecting all their life and security to a for-profit, huge corporation is a bad idea for many well-known reasons. I am willing to dedicate my time to explaining that and promoting Linux, especilly when there are harmful myths about it like those you're propagating.
- eightysixfour 3y ago
  > Librem 14 While I understand that this isn’t the only way to achieve a great linux experience on a laptop, using an example with a nearly 4.5 year old CPU, a 1080p screen, and no GPU at a substantially higher cost than any other comparable hardware isn’t exactly a strong sales pitch for me. > People who like tweaking, do it. It’s definitely easier on Linux anyway. No, it isn’t. They’re both “tweakable” in different ways, but setting some group policy objects or registry setting is not inherently more challenging than tweaking a config file. > Many people are unaware that subjecting all their life and security to a for-profit, huge corporation is a bad idea for many well-known reasons. Nothing digital is “all my life.” If Microsoft turned my access off and remotely wiped my hard drives today, and made it impossible for me to recover from backups, I’d be inconvenienced, but absolutely fine. But they won’t, because they like my money. I’m okay with that clear, transactional relationship. Microsoft is nowhere near the top of the “outside entities that could wreck my life” list. > especially when there are harmful myths about it like those you are propagating. Desktop Linux is worse at out of the box hardware support than Windows, especially new hardware and laptops. I don’t even think this is controversial. Even laptops like frame.work that explicitly support Linux have year long threads in their forums with people trying to get the behaviors consistently right. Probably more controversial in this audience, but I feel strongly is true, is that the computing “upper middle class” - those who do more than surf the web, check email, or edit documents but don’t feel comfortable dropping into a console without explicit directions - are almost always better served by MacOS or Windows for their desktop.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > Desktop Linux is worse at out of the box hardware support than Windows, especially new hardware and laptops. I don’t even think this is controversial. You're mistaken, and this is wrong. You need to choose your hardware explicitly for the OS, just like with Macs. Check recommended hardware on the website of particular Linux distribution. frame.work do not explicitly support Linux. They default to Windows, and Linux option is only for DIY kits, implying bad support. I'm not considering them for this reason.
    - eightysixfour 3y ago
      > You're mistaken, and this is wrong. You need to choose your hardware explicitly for the OS, just like with Macs. Check recommended hardware on the website of particular Linux distribution. Macs are not equivalent. The OS and hardware are inextricably linked and the OS is not developed to support other hardware, except by dedicated hackers. Linux however supports a huge array of hardware and explicitly tries to cover a wide spectrum of devices. Same as Windows. Windows does it better. On the Ubuntu page: > Download Ubuntu desktop and replace your current operating system. It’s easy to install on Windows or macOS, or run Ubuntu alongside it. The next page has a list of basic recommended requirements (min 2ghz dual core, ram, etc). If they removed this and replaced it with a hardware compatibility checker, or only offered Ubuntu via their hardware, I would cede this point. > frame.work do not explicitly support Linux. They default to Windows, and Linux option is only for DIY kits, implying bad support. I'm not considering them for this reason. From their website: > We designed the Framework Laptop from the outset to be a great Linux laptop, and the Framework Laptop DIY Edition comes with no OS loaded to let you bring your favorite Linux distribution. We deliberately selected components and modules that didn’t require new kernel driver development and have been providing distro maintainers with pre-release hardware to test to improve compatibility. > Official support means we work with the Ubuntu and Fedora teams to do our best to avoid bugs and regressions. We provide official support for Ubuntu 22.04 LTS (OEM C kernel) release. We provide official support for Fedora 38 (Intel) and Fedora 39 (Intel, AMD). We provide consistently updated install guides. We provide support ticket assistance. We provide help through the community forums. They support Ubuntu and Fedora, work with the distro teams to handle bugs, and will respond to support tickets for those distros and versions. That’s pretty explicit.
trelane 3y ago
I you stop trying to play armchair systems integrator and instead buy computers with Linux preinstalled fully supported by the vendor, you'll have a much better time of it. Modern hardware is complex enough that it supports Windows or Linux. Not both, though.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  So I thought when I bought my Asus 1215B netbook (remember those?), and had my share of headaches related to the 3D support (when AMD drivers got rebooted), video acceleration (still doesn't work), and a wlan driver that keeps losing connections to my home router, forcing me to use a LAN cable instead. Ah, and rebooting occasionally requires taking the battery off as workaround to take it out of an UEFI zombie state.
  - trelane 3y ago
    Did you call their support to get it fixed? I'm guessing you didn't, since the 1215B didn't ship with Linux, according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee_PC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee_PC Interestingly, I had a few of the earlier models that did (701, 901 iirc) and their support for Linux was great. Certainly light years ahead of my efforts to put Linux in a Dell a few years prior.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Typical Linux fan answer on the Internet, apparently Wikipedia knows better than me, having bought it. Not only it shipped with a custom Asus distribution for media play called Linux Express, it had Ubuntu on it.
      - trelane 3y ago
        Not surprising, since I don't know you. I tried to confirm your claims and only found confirmation that it didn't ship with Linux. What is surprising that you come back with ad-hominem arguments ("typical Linux fan answer," "knows better than me") in lieu of hard evidence.

fsflover 3y ago

First, I never tweaked the suspend or hibernate on my laptops and they always've been working flawlessly (Librem 14 and 15). > every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup You were asking wrong people perhaps. My non-technical relatives are just using Linux for their tasks and don't even know what a console is. People who like tweaking, do it. It's definitely easier on Linux anyway. > but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. Most people are unaware that subjecting all their life and security to a for-profit, huge corporation is a bad idea for many well-known reasons. I am willing to dedicate my time to explaining that and promoting Linux, especilly when there are harmful myths about it like those you're propagating.

eightysixfour 3y ago
> Librem 14 While I understand that this isn’t the only way to achieve a great linux experience on a laptop, using an example with a nearly 4.5 year old CPU, a 1080p screen, and no GPU at a substantially higher cost than any other comparable hardware isn’t exactly a strong sales pitch for me. > People who like tweaking, do it. It’s definitely easier on Linux anyway. No, it isn’t. They’re both “tweakable” in different ways, but setting some group policy objects or registry setting is not inherently more challenging than tweaking a config file. > Many people are unaware that subjecting all their life and security to a for-profit, huge corporation is a bad idea for many well-known reasons. Nothing digital is “all my life.” If Microsoft turned my access off and remotely wiped my hard drives today, and made it impossible for me to recover from backups, I’d be inconvenienced, but absolutely fine. But they won’t, because they like my money. I’m okay with that clear, transactional relationship. Microsoft is nowhere near the top of the “outside entities that could wreck my life” list. > especially when there are harmful myths about it like those you are propagating. Desktop Linux is worse at out of the box hardware support than Windows, especially new hardware and laptops. I don’t even think this is controversial. Even laptops like frame.work that explicitly support Linux have year long threads in their forums with people trying to get the behaviors consistently right. Probably more controversial in this audience, but I feel strongly is true, is that the computing “upper middle class” - those who do more than surf the web, check email, or edit documents but don’t feel comfortable dropping into a console without explicit directions - are almost always better served by MacOS or Windows for their desktop.
- fsflover 3y ago
  > Desktop Linux is worse at out of the box hardware support than Windows, especially new hardware and laptops. I don’t even think this is controversial. You're mistaken, and this is wrong. You need to choose your hardware explicitly for the OS, just like with Macs. Check recommended hardware on the website of particular Linux distribution. frame.work do not explicitly support Linux. They default to Windows, and Linux option is only for DIY kits, implying bad support. I'm not considering them for this reason.
  - eightysixfour 3y ago
    > You're mistaken, and this is wrong. You need to choose your hardware explicitly for the OS, just like with Macs. Check recommended hardware on the website of particular Linux distribution. Macs are not equivalent. The OS and hardware are inextricably linked and the OS is not developed to support other hardware, except by dedicated hackers. Linux however supports a huge array of hardware and explicitly tries to cover a wide spectrum of devices. Same as Windows. Windows does it better. On the Ubuntu page: > Download Ubuntu desktop and replace your current operating system. It’s easy to install on Windows or macOS, or run Ubuntu alongside it. The next page has a list of basic recommended requirements (min 2ghz dual core, ram, etc). If they removed this and replaced it with a hardware compatibility checker, or only offered Ubuntu via their hardware, I would cede this point. > frame.work do not explicitly support Linux. They default to Windows, and Linux option is only for DIY kits, implying bad support. I'm not considering them for this reason. From their website: > We designed the Framework Laptop from the outset to be a great Linux laptop, and the Framework Laptop DIY Edition comes with no OS loaded to let you bring your favorite Linux distribution. We deliberately selected components and modules that didn’t require new kernel driver development and have been providing distro maintainers with pre-release hardware to test to improve compatibility. > Official support means we work with the Ubuntu and Fedora teams to do our best to avoid bugs and regressions. We provide official support for Ubuntu 22.04 LTS (OEM C kernel) release. We provide official support for Fedora 38 (Intel) and Fedora 39 (Intel, AMD). We provide consistently updated install guides. We provide support ticket assistance. We provide help through the community forums. They support Ubuntu and Fedora, work with the distro teams to handle bugs, and will respond to support tickets for those distros and versions. That’s pretty explicit.

trelane 3y ago

I you stop trying to play armchair systems integrator and instead buy computers with Linux preinstalled fully supported by the vendor, you'll have a much better time of it. Modern hardware is complex enough that it supports Windows or Linux. Not both, though.

pjmlp 3y ago
So I thought when I bought my Asus 1215B netbook (remember those?), and had my share of headaches related to the 3D support (when AMD drivers got rebooted), video acceleration (still doesn't work), and a wlan driver that keeps losing connections to my home router, forcing me to use a LAN cable instead. Ah, and rebooting occasionally requires taking the battery off as workaround to take it out of an UEFI zombie state.
- trelane 3y ago
  Did you call their support to get it fixed? I'm guessing you didn't, since the 1215B didn't ship with Linux, according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee_PC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee_PC Interestingly, I had a few of the earlier models that did (701, 901 iirc) and their support for Linux was great. Certainly light years ahead of my efforts to put Linux in a Dell a few years prior.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Typical Linux fan answer on the Internet, apparently Wikipedia knows better than me, having bought it. Not only it shipped with a custom Asus distribution for media play called Linux Express, it had Ubuntu on it.
    - trelane 3y ago
      Not surprising, since I don't know you. I tried to confirm your claims and only found confirmation that it didn't ship with Linux. What is surprising that you come back with ad-hominem arguments ("typical Linux fan answer," "knows better than me") in lieu of hard evidence.