5 ms·

"Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" is certainly an interesting life choice. M

by pc86 3y ago

"Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" is certainly an interesting life choice. More seriously though I do think there are benefits to city living if that's a lifestyle you want, but saving money is almost never one of them unless you have a job where you can make a LOT more living in the city, which sort of by definition means you're not going to be working remotely.

coldpie 3y ago
Who said anything about money? Owning a car sucks, dude. Without a car, you don't need a place to store it, you don't need to worry about the safety of your $25,000 item every time you want to go somewhere, you don't need to worry (as much) about being turned into hamburger by your own or some other idiot's mistake. When I go somewhere, I hop on the bus, read a book for a while, and then I'm at my destination. It's fantastic.
- pc86 3y ago
  It's pretty nice in my experience, dude. But I don't live in a city so it's more of a necessity and none of these downsides are really an issue - which is sort the entire point.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Ditching cars feels like giving up regular alcohol use did, where the scales fell from my eyes and I see how much better my life is without it, but I can't quite communicate it to others without seeming like a huge judgmental prick :)
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I've been without a car for 4 years now, and it is becoming a burden. For the first 2 years it wasn't so bad because of lock down. Now, even with my e-bike (which I love and would continue to use if I had a car) there are certain things I just cannot do. Inclimate weather is a big one, and in my location, June-September is inclimate weather of 100°+ weather. Carrying things home from the hardware store is not conducive activity with my e-bike. Large item purchases, blah blah blah. If I were to rent a car suitable each time, I could just pay the monthly car payment
      - chimeracoder 3y ago
        > I've been without a car for 4 years now, and it is becoming a burden. For the first 2 years it wasn't so bad because of lock down. Now, even with my e-bike (which I love and would continue to use if I had a car) there are certain things I just cannot do. Inclimate weather is a big one, and in my location, June-September is inclimate weather of 100°+ weather. Carrying things home from the hardware store is not conducive activity with my e-bike. Large item purchases, blah blah blah. If I were to rent a car suitable each time, I could just pay the monthly car payment You haven't specified where you live, but from the details you've written, we can narrow it down far enough to safely conclude that you're not living in a place that's designed to support a car-free lifestyle. I have lived for over fifteen years without a car. Not only do I not miss it, but I'd pay to be able to live like this. I can rent a car whenever I need it (something like once or twice a year) and the total annual cost is a fraction of what a monthly car payment would be almost anywhere in the country: gas, financing, repairs, fees, other expenses, etc. all add up to way more than people realize[0]. When you're living in a place that's designed with cars in mind, it's hard to imagine living comfortably without it, but when you're living in a place that's designed for other means of transportation, it's hard to imagine ever going back to cars. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/business/car-ownership-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/business/car-...
        dylan604 3y ago
        > When you're living in a place that's designed with cars in mind, Being born in a place is a lottery with random chance deciding the rules for you. Sure, as an adult, you can potentially choose to leave for the less green pasture and live in an urban environment of city designed for other means of transpo if you're one that doesn't mind moving away from their entire familial support structure. Not say it can't be done, but people just assume these decisions are something people are willing to make just because they did. It's nonsensical.
        chimeracoder 3y ago
        > Being born in a place is a lottery with random chance deciding the rules for you. Sure, as an adult, you can potentially choose to leave for the less green pasture and live in an urban environment of city designed for other means of transpo if you're one that doesn't mind moving away from their entire familial support structure. Not say it can't be done, but people just assume these decisions are something people are willing to make just because they did. It's nonsensical. Nobody in this subthread is saying anything to that effect. This thread was prompted by someone asking why anyone would want to live in a [car-free] urban environment in the first place. The ability to do so is implied by the question, not something being prescribed by edict.
- refurb 3y ago
  That seems like a pretty subjective and personal opinion. I love having a car. It gives me freedom and flexibility. It enables me to do the hobbies I like. It even gives me more career options and a broader range of housing options.
throw0101d 3y ago
> "Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" is certainly an interesting life choice. Try $1000/mo on average: * https://money.com/owning-new-car-cost-total-2023/ https://money.com/owning-new-car-cost-total-2023/ If you're making >$100K that may not sound like that much, but the average/median US salary is lower. (That probably doesn't include externalities either: health, climate change, commute times when you do have to go into the office, etc.) Cars can be convenient, but it'd be better if they were option for living your life rather than a necessity.
- pc86 3y ago
  $1k/mo is a new car with no down payment, most people aren't doing that. It's literally the most expensive way to get a vehicle! Maybe #2 depending on your views on leasing and how you calculate cost there. And even using the $1k/mo number, you're still paying thousands more in rent to save that.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    $1k/month doesn't just necessarily mean the financing on the car. When I look at the monthly requirements for the car, I include insurance in that number. If the place I'm living requires a parking fee, I include that number. I don't include gas/maintenance as those are variable, so I'm only including the fixed costs fees. You can also get higher payments with money down if you have no to low credit ratings. Been there, done that. You play the game using the online calculators that dealers provide on how much your payment can change based on credit score and down payment, and the credit score will dramatically change compared to the down payment.
  - throw0101d 3y ago
    > $1k/mo is a new car with no down payment The average monthly payment for a used car is $500/mo, and $700/mo for a new car: * https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/average-monthly-car-payment https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/average-... Then add maintenance, insurance, depreciation, fuel. And that's just the stuff that shows up on a spreadsheet (of which depreciation most folks don't really think about).
avianlyric 3y ago
> "Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" You must have one of those magical cars that runs on air, never needs to be filled up, never needs to be taxed, never needs to be insured and never breaks down. Wish I could have one of those cars. In the meantime I’ll settle for using my feet and my bike. Never needed to fill them up with fuel, pay insurance, or tax. And my feet, at least, have never broken down.
- bluGill 3y ago
  $400/month is probably a reasonable average to cover the cost of a car though. Sure a new car will be over $1000/month, but a used car will be much cheaper. In ever city I've looked downtown housing is a lot more than that. Of course most cities let you live much cheaper just outside of downtown, if you can do that you have reasonable rents and good access to transit and so a car would be a large extra cost.
- pastage 3y ago
  Cheapest TCO for a bought used car is about 400 euro per month here in Sweden, most will spend more because they drive more or buy a more expensive car. The majority of people will spend more than 600 euros per month at 1200km YMMV, the externalties are subsidized to at least 100-1500 euros per month depending on how you count. All these numbers are from 2019. Without car we pay about 300 euros per month for all transport needs, an extra 100 euros per month are direct subsidies. I would guess we would pay at least 800 euros per month for a car, probably more.
lukas099 3y ago
Don't forget the price of all the extra healthcare you need if you don't walk or bike anywhere.
shortsunblack 3y ago
According to American Automobile Association, annual cost of car ownership is 12182 US$[1]. That is 3x montly than that you claim. [1] https://newsroom.aaa.com/2023/08/annual-new-car-ownership-costs-boil-over-12k/ https://newsroom.aaa.com/2023/08/annual-new-car-ownership-co...
- bombcar 3y ago
  > the average cost of owning and operating a new vehicle in 2023 The average vehicle on the road is 12 years old.

by pc86 3y ago

coldpie 3y ago

Who said anything about money? Owning a car sucks, dude. Without a car, you don't need a place to store it, you don't need to worry about the safety of your $25,000 item every time you want to go somewhere, you don't need to worry (as much) about being turned into hamburger by your own or some other idiot's mistake. When I go somewhere, I hop on the bus, read a book for a while, and then I'm at my destination. It's fantastic.

pc86 3y ago
It's pretty nice in my experience, dude. But I don't live in a city so it's more of a necessity and none of these downsides are really an issue - which is sort the entire point.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Ditching cars feels like giving up regular alcohol use did, where the scales fell from my eyes and I see how much better my life is without it, but I can't quite communicate it to others without seeming like a huge judgmental prick :)
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I've been without a car for 4 years now, and it is becoming a burden. For the first 2 years it wasn't so bad because of lock down. Now, even with my e-bike (which I love and would continue to use if I had a car) there are certain things I just cannot do. Inclimate weather is a big one, and in my location, June-September is inclimate weather of 100°+ weather. Carrying things home from the hardware store is not conducive activity with my e-bike. Large item purchases, blah blah blah. If I were to rent a car suitable each time, I could just pay the monthly car payment
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > I've been without a car for 4 years now, and it is becoming a burden. For the first 2 years it wasn't so bad because of lock down. Now, even with my e-bike (which I love and would continue to use if I had a car) there are certain things I just cannot do. Inclimate weather is a big one, and in my location, June-September is inclimate weather of 100°+ weather. Carrying things home from the hardware store is not conducive activity with my e-bike. Large item purchases, blah blah blah. If I were to rent a car suitable each time, I could just pay the monthly car payment You haven't specified where you live, but from the details you've written, we can narrow it down far enough to safely conclude that you're not living in a place that's designed to support a car-free lifestyle. I have lived for over fifteen years without a car. Not only do I not miss it, but I'd pay to be able to live like this. I can rent a car whenever I need it (something like once or twice a year) and the total annual cost is a fraction of what a monthly car payment would be almost anywhere in the country: gas, financing, repairs, fees, other expenses, etc. all add up to way more than people realize[0]. When you're living in a place that's designed with cars in mind, it's hard to imagine living comfortably without it, but when you're living in a place that's designed for other means of transportation, it's hard to imagine ever going back to cars. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/business/car-ownership-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/business/car-...
      - dylan604 3y ago
        > When you're living in a place that's designed with cars in mind, Being born in a place is a lottery with random chance deciding the rules for you. Sure, as an adult, you can potentially choose to leave for the less green pasture and live in an urban environment of city designed for other means of transpo if you're one that doesn't mind moving away from their entire familial support structure. Not say it can't be done, but people just assume these decisions are something people are willing to make just because they did. It's nonsensical.
        chimeracoder 3y ago
        > Being born in a place is a lottery with random chance deciding the rules for you. Sure, as an adult, you can potentially choose to leave for the less green pasture and live in an urban environment of city designed for other means of transpo if you're one that doesn't mind moving away from their entire familial support structure. Not say it can't be done, but people just assume these decisions are something people are willing to make just because they did. It's nonsensical. Nobody in this subthread is saying anything to that effect. This thread was prompted by someone asking why anyone would want to live in a [car-free] urban environment in the first place. The ability to do so is implied by the question, not something being prescribed by edict.
refurb 3y ago
That seems like a pretty subjective and personal opinion. I love having a car. It gives me freedom and flexibility. It enables me to do the hobbies I like. It even gives me more career options and a broader range of housing options.

throw0101d 3y ago

> "Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" is certainly an interesting life choice. Try $1000/mo on average: * https://money.com/owning-new-car-cost-total-2023/ https://money.com/owning-new-car-cost-total-2023/ If you're making >$100K that may not sound like that much, but the average/median US salary is lower. (That probably doesn't include externalities either: health, climate change, commute times when you do have to go into the office, etc.) Cars can be convenient, but it'd be better if they were option for living your life rather than a necessity.

pc86 3y ago
$1k/mo is a new car with no down payment, most people aren't doing that. It's literally the most expensive way to get a vehicle! Maybe #2 depending on your views on leasing and how you calculate cost there. And even using the $1k/mo number, you're still paying thousands more in rent to save that.
- dylan604 3y ago
  $1k/month doesn't just necessarily mean the financing on the car. When I look at the monthly requirements for the car, I include insurance in that number. If the place I'm living requires a parking fee, I include that number. I don't include gas/maintenance as those are variable, so I'm only including the fixed costs fees. You can also get higher payments with money down if you have no to low credit ratings. Been there, done that. You play the game using the online calculators that dealers provide on how much your payment can change based on credit score and down payment, and the credit score will dramatically change compared to the down payment.
- throw0101d 3y ago
  > $1k/mo is a new car with no down payment The average monthly payment for a used car is $500/mo, and $700/mo for a new car: * https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/average-monthly-car-payment https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/average-... Then add maintenance, insurance, depreciation, fuel. And that's just the stuff that shows up on a spreadsheet (of which depreciation most folks don't really think about).

avianlyric 3y ago

> "Let's pay 3x as much for rent [and other things that more expensive with density] to save $300/mo on a car payment" You must have one of those magical cars that runs on air, never needs to be filled up, never needs to be taxed, never needs to be insured and never breaks down. Wish I could have one of those cars. In the meantime I’ll settle for using my feet and my bike. Never needed to fill them up with fuel, pay insurance, or tax. And my feet, at least, have never broken down.

bluGill 3y ago
$400/month is probably a reasonable average to cover the cost of a car though. Sure a new car will be over $1000/month, but a used car will be much cheaper. In ever city I've looked downtown housing is a lot more than that. Of course most cities let you live much cheaper just outside of downtown, if you can do that you have reasonable rents and good access to transit and so a car would be a large extra cost.
pastage 3y ago
Cheapest TCO for a bought used car is about 400 euro per month here in Sweden, most will spend more because they drive more or buy a more expensive car. The majority of people will spend more than 600 euros per month at 1200km YMMV, the externalties are subsidized to at least 100-1500 euros per month depending on how you count. All these numbers are from 2019. Without car we pay about 300 euros per month for all transport needs, an extra 100 euros per month are direct subsidies. I would guess we would pay at least 800 euros per month for a car, probably more.

lukas099 3y ago

Don't forget the price of all the extra healthcare you need if you don't walk or bike anywhere.

shortsunblack 3y ago

According to American Automobile Association, annual cost of car ownership is 12182 US$[1]. That is 3x montly than that you claim. [1] https://newsroom.aaa.com/2023/08/annual-new-car-ownership-costs-boil-over-12k/ https://newsroom.aaa.com/2023/08/annual-new-car-ownership-co...

bombcar 3y ago
> the average cost of owning and operating a new vehicle in 2023 The average vehicle on the road is 12 years old.