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> But there are also experienced Windows users and frankly a lot of the garbage added isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, it requires a bunch of configuration work,

> But there are also experienced Windows users and frankly a lot of the garbage added isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, it requires a bunch of configuration work, but after a few hours you can get Windows to more or less work how it's always worked. Yeah, people like to complain about the amount of time they spend getting Windows to work they want, but they’re willing to spend hours trying to get sleep to work in Linux. There are plenty of scripts out there to disable as much or as little of the telemetry and everything else as you want, using the Pro or Enterprise editions lets you skip the cloud, and then it just… works. There’s a certain give and take with all OSes about how much you adapt to it and how much it adapts to you. At work I use a Mac, I have two Linux servers in my closet, and my personal machine runs Windows. They’re each the right tool for their respective jobs, for me.

fsflover 3y ago
> but they’re willing to spend hours trying to get sleep to work in Linux. There is no need to set up the sleep for Linux if you choose a supported hardware and not a Windows-certified one. Complaining that Linux doesn't work on the latter is like complaining that MacOS doesn't work on it.
- eightysixfour 3y ago
  I wish I had written this into the original comment because I knew someone would say this. No it isn’t - MacOS and Macs are a singular product sold together. Windows and Linux are OSes that are downloadable from the web or buyable from stores and Windows consumer hardware support is simply better. And that’s okay, there are people who will seek devices that support it better, but I am not one of them, I will just virtualize it or run it in WSL. If Linux had 30% desktop market share that would change, but it doesn’t. FWIW, I agree with most criticisms of Windows. It is clear Microsoft no longer treats Windows the OS as a product, they treat every individual piece of it as a product, and that’s resulting in some weird, ugly, user hostile shit, but I can still get rid of it in no time at all and have a better personal OS. I think of it like adding unlock to a browser. If it continues down its current path, I may be willing to switch, but it hasn’t passed the value/pain curve point for me yet.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > Windows and Linux are OSes that are downloadable from the web or buyable from stores Virtually no (offline) stores sell devices with Linux. Being downloadable doesn't imply compatibility with all hardware in the world.
    - eightysixfour 3y ago
      > Virtually no (offline) stores sell devices with Linux. I did not specify offline, I was mainly catching Windows as an individually purchasable product. > Being downloadloadable doesn’t imply compatibility with all the hardware in the world. I did not say that it does, but there are plenty of distros that strive to be a consumer desktop OS, and part of that effort is working with a broad range of hardware, and for me they continually fail. I would rather install an OS where all my hardware works and then I can tweak it to behave the way I want than install an OS where the hardware doesn’t work and I still spend my time tweaking it to behave the way I want. Even ignoring hardware support and things like sleep and hibernate, every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup than I do getting rid of the things they complain about in Windows. It is fine to have a preference, there’s no perfect OS for everyone, but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. There are valid reasons for tech literate users to consciously choose Windows over Linux.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        First, I never tweaked the suspend or hibernate on my laptops and they always've been working flawlessly (Librem 14 and 15). > every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup You were asking wrong people perhaps. My non-technical relatives are just using Linux for their tasks and don't even know what a console is. People who like tweaking, do it. It's definitely easier on Linux anyway. > but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. Most people are unaware that subjecting all their life and security to a for-profit, huge corporation is a bad idea for many well-known reasons. I am willing to dedicate my time to explaining that and promoting Linux, especilly when there are harmful myths about it like those you're propagating.

fsflover 3y ago

> but they’re willing to spend hours trying to get sleep to work in Linux. There is no need to set up the sleep for Linux if you choose a supported hardware and not a Windows-certified one. Complaining that Linux doesn't work on the latter is like complaining that MacOS doesn't work on it.

eightysixfour 3y ago
I wish I had written this into the original comment because I knew someone would say this. No it isn’t - MacOS and Macs are a singular product sold together. Windows and Linux are OSes that are downloadable from the web or buyable from stores and Windows consumer hardware support is simply better. And that’s okay, there are people who will seek devices that support it better, but I am not one of them, I will just virtualize it or run it in WSL. If Linux had 30% desktop market share that would change, but it doesn’t. FWIW, I agree with most criticisms of Windows. It is clear Microsoft no longer treats Windows the OS as a product, they treat every individual piece of it as a product, and that’s resulting in some weird, ugly, user hostile shit, but I can still get rid of it in no time at all and have a better personal OS. I think of it like adding unlock to a browser. If it continues down its current path, I may be willing to switch, but it hasn’t passed the value/pain curve point for me yet.
- fsflover 3y ago
  > Windows and Linux are OSes that are downloadable from the web or buyable from stores Virtually no (offline) stores sell devices with Linux. Being downloadable doesn't imply compatibility with all hardware in the world.
  - eightysixfour 3y ago
    > Virtually no (offline) stores sell devices with Linux. I did not specify offline, I was mainly catching Windows as an individually purchasable product. > Being downloadloadable doesn’t imply compatibility with all the hardware in the world. I did not say that it does, but there are plenty of distros that strive to be a consumer desktop OS, and part of that effort is working with a broad range of hardware, and for me they continually fail. I would rather install an OS where all my hardware works and then I can tweak it to behave the way I want than install an OS where the hardware doesn’t work and I still spend my time tweaking it to behave the way I want. Even ignoring hardware support and things like sleep and hibernate, every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup than I do getting rid of the things they complain about in Windows. It is fine to have a preference, there’s no perfect OS for everyone, but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. There are valid reasons for tech literate users to consciously choose Windows over Linux.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      First, I never tweaked the suspend or hibernate on my laptops and they always've been working flawlessly (Librem 14 and 15). > every Linux desktop user I know spends more time customizing the OS to get their desired setup You were asking wrong people perhaps. My non-technical relatives are just using Linux for their tasks and don't even know what a console is. People who like tweaking, do it. It's definitely easier on Linux anyway. > but I think it is silly when people decide this is a hill they want to die on. Most people are unaware that subjecting all their life and security to a for-profit, huge corporation is a bad idea for many well-known reasons. I am willing to dedicate my time to explaining that and promoting Linux, especilly when there are harmful myths about it like those you're propagating.