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The cynic in me thinks that the PD is willing to be so lax for moving violations for self-driving cars because they're not actually concerned about the moving v

by jawns 3y ago

The cynic in me thinks that the PD is willing to be so lax for moving violations for self-driving cars because they're not actually concerned about the moving violation. LEOs view the initial offense as a lead that gives them probable cause to start fishing for more serious offenses once they initiate the stop. But they're not going to nail a self-driving car for DUI, drugs, weapons, etc. To a certain degree, all minor traffic stops are pretextual stops. They're an "in" to look for more serious offenses. One thing I am very curious about, though, is how the system of adding points to a license for certain traffic infractions translates to self-driving cars. Surely it would not make sense to add points on a car-by-car level, since every car in each fleet is presumably running the same software, but applying them to Cruise or Waymo in the aggregate doesn't make sense, either, unless there's some sort of formula for "points per mile driven across the fleet."

Justsignedup 3y ago
Also likely because instead of some schmuck they now have to extract cash from a corporation. Which isn't profitable.
latexr 3y ago
> But they're not going to nail a self-driving car for DUI, drugs, weapons, etc. Not the DUI, sure, but there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to place drugs and guns in the trunk of the car and send it along its way to the buyer’s location. > applying them to Cruise or Waymo in the aggregate doesn't make sense Why not? As you said, they’re all presumably using the same software so it’s as if the same driver was in all of them. It would also be a way to put pressure on companies to grow slowly and get it right, which is a positive for society.
- cbsks 3y ago
  That’s interesting… does anyone know if it is possible today to hail a self driving taxi and put a duffle bag in the back seat instead of a person?
  - fragmede 3y ago
    sure. you can start the ride from the waymo app without being inside the car, same as Uber package delivery. might need to buckle the seat belt for it.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Sure, but how does a recipient take possession? Only the app owner can unlock doors; Waymo arrives with locked doors, so who can open them from the outside?
      - fragmede 3y ago
        Open the windows and the recipient can reach their arms in to unlock the doors.
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Who opens the windows? Do I misunderstand your scenario? 1) User summons Waymo with the app to Point A. 2) User unlocks vehicle with the app at Point A. 3) User opens the hatch and tosses in some cargo. 4) User taps "Start Ride" in the app, and vehicle leaves Point A with no passengers on board. 5) Vehicle arrives at Destination Point B with no passengers. Who's opening the windows? That's not possible. Not even the app can open windows. They require a human inside the vehicle. App cannot open doors. Requires a human operating handles. I am not sure, but it does not seem like the app can even unlock doors after the initial pickup encounter. There is no unlock option during dropoffs. The hatch can be opened with a button from outside, and it's motorized. The vehicle can close its own hatch if need be. The vehicle is NOT capable of closing its own doors. The vehicle may be capable of opening its hatch, but this is not an app feature.
- Justsignedup 3y ago
  Ah but you can't rely on which car gets to where. So the best you can hope for is a to B. Which means both ends are recorded. And likely waymo will look for baggage only trips and report them. Those are trivial to detect with pressure sensors.
  - latexr 3y ago
    > And likely waymo will look for baggage only trips and report them. It’s just as likely, perhaps even more so, that they’ll eventually embrace and advertise baggage-only trips. Because money. You can use services today (similar to food delivery) to have a random person send a random package, it’s perfectly plausible that’ll eventually use the same automated systems.
    - Justsignedup 3y ago
      this will get quickly shut down once people start transporting explosives to politician's houses
      - kevinventullo 3y ago
        I think there’s enough KYC that if someone attempted this they would quickly be arrested.
- jawns 3y ago
  > there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to place drugs and guns in the trunk of the car and send it along its way to the buyer’s location Right, but then the LEO needs to establish probable cause to search the vehicle. They can't just pop the trunk because they feel like it. One of the ways they normally establish probable cause to search is by alleging that the driver appears impaired, or by getting the driver's consent, neither of which they can do with a self-driving car. Even the classic "I smell weed" allegation might not pass muster anymore, given California's legalization of marijuana use and the fact that it does not impair the operation of the vehicle, as it might if a human driver is high.
  - beaeglebeached 3y ago
    Just require someone to be in passenger seat and legally mandate them as driver. I think this would satisfy law enforcement as they could still do their shady stuff and do the usual of using a pretext they've lied about. The unavoidable roadblock is the state never goes backwards in ways they oppress the populace so as long as they can have someone assigned for persecution they'll be happy.
- filoleg 3y ago
  > there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to place drugs and guns in the trunk of the car Most common drugs that people get busted with in their car (weed and alcohol) aren’t illegal on their own in most states, they are illegal in relation to the person driving the car. More specifically, could the driver even theoretically access those while driving later, without having to step out of the car? If yes, that’s illegal already, even if the person is fully sober. For example, if I drive in California with a few joints in my trunk or a case of beer - totally legal. But if i am in the exact same situation, except the joints and the case of beer are in the cabin (even if it is in the backseat and is in fully-sealed original packaging that was provably never opened) - I am in trouble. But the more serious barrier to this, as others have pointed out already, is that they cannot just pop your trunk to do anything shady with no probable cause. You can easily make up a probable cause that the driver looked impaired, even if that wasn’t the case, and then you can “inspect” the trunk and do whatever shady business you want. But a self-driving vehicle pretty much nullifies the possibility of that, because it eliminates sobriety of the person in the car from the equation.
tyingq 3y ago
It will be interesting to see what happens when the revenue drop from not being able to issue mundane violations gets noticed by their leaders.
foxyv 3y ago
It depends on the department and the officer's mission. If they are having a ton of problems with human trafficking they will start using pre-textual stops to search for that. If you are assigned specifically to traffic they will focus on reckless driving, distracted driving, drunk driving, or whatever is the huge problem that week. With regards to traffic infractions for self driving cars, I imagine that it would be an overall license for specific manufacturers or companies. If Waymo is causing problems then they could lose their license to operate in that jurisdiction. For personal vehicles like Teslas they would lose their personal license or just be plain banned from operating.
tqi 3y ago
Unless there is a acute public safety concern, I don't see why traffic citations for driverless cars couldn't be handled the same way red light camera violations are in many states: no traffic stop, just mail a citation/fine to the registered owner. No points on the driver.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by jawns 3y ago

Justsignedup 3y ago

Also likely because instead of some schmuck they now have to extract cash from a corporation. Which isn't profitable.

latexr 3y ago

> But they're not going to nail a self-driving car for DUI, drugs, weapons, etc. Not the DUI, sure, but there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to place drugs and guns in the trunk of the car and send it along its way to the buyer’s location. > applying them to Cruise or Waymo in the aggregate doesn't make sense Why not? As you said, they’re all presumably using the same software so it’s as if the same driver was in all of them. It would also be a way to put pressure on companies to grow slowly and get it right, which is a positive for society.

cbsks 3y ago
That’s interesting… does anyone know if it is possible today to hail a self driving taxi and put a duffle bag in the back seat instead of a person?
- fragmede 3y ago
  sure. you can start the ride from the waymo app without being inside the car, same as Uber package delivery. might need to buckle the seat belt for it.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Sure, but how does a recipient take possession? Only the app owner can unlock doors; Waymo arrives with locked doors, so who can open them from the outside?
    - fragmede 3y ago
      Open the windows and the recipient can reach their arms in to unlock the doors.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Who opens the windows? Do I misunderstand your scenario? 1) User summons Waymo with the app to Point A. 2) User unlocks vehicle with the app at Point A. 3) User opens the hatch and tosses in some cargo. 4) User taps "Start Ride" in the app, and vehicle leaves Point A with no passengers on board. 5) Vehicle arrives at Destination Point B with no passengers. Who's opening the windows? That's not possible. Not even the app can open windows. They require a human inside the vehicle. App cannot open doors. Requires a human operating handles. I am not sure, but it does not seem like the app can even unlock doors after the initial pickup encounter. There is no unlock option during dropoffs. The hatch can be opened with a button from outside, and it's motorized. The vehicle can close its own hatch if need be. The vehicle is NOT capable of closing its own doors. The vehicle may be capable of opening its hatch, but this is not an app feature.
Justsignedup 3y ago
Ah but you can't rely on which car gets to where. So the best you can hope for is a to B. Which means both ends are recorded. And likely waymo will look for baggage only trips and report them. Those are trivial to detect with pressure sensors.
- latexr 3y ago
  > And likely waymo will look for baggage only trips and report them. It’s just as likely, perhaps even more so, that they’ll eventually embrace and advertise baggage-only trips. Because money. You can use services today (similar to food delivery) to have a random person send a random package, it’s perfectly plausible that’ll eventually use the same automated systems.
  - Justsignedup 3y ago
    this will get quickly shut down once people start transporting explosives to politician's houses
    - kevinventullo 3y ago
      I think there’s enough KYC that if someone attempted this they would quickly be arrested.
jawns 3y ago
> there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to place drugs and guns in the trunk of the car and send it along its way to the buyer’s location Right, but then the LEO needs to establish probable cause to search the vehicle. They can't just pop the trunk because they feel like it. One of the ways they normally establish probable cause to search is by alleging that the driver appears impaired, or by getting the driver's consent, neither of which they can do with a self-driving car. Even the classic "I smell weed" allegation might not pass muster anymore, given California's legalization of marijuana use and the fact that it does not impair the operation of the vehicle, as it might if a human driver is high.
- beaeglebeached 3y ago
  Just require someone to be in passenger seat and legally mandate them as driver. I think this would satisfy law enforcement as they could still do their shady stuff and do the usual of using a pretext they've lied about. The unavoidable roadblock is the state never goes backwards in ways they oppress the populace so as long as they can have someone assigned for persecution they'll be happy.
filoleg 3y ago
> there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to place drugs and guns in the trunk of the car Most common drugs that people get busted with in their car (weed and alcohol) aren’t illegal on their own in most states, they are illegal in relation to the person driving the car. More specifically, could the driver even theoretically access those while driving later, without having to step out of the car? If yes, that’s illegal already, even if the person is fully sober. For example, if I drive in California with a few joints in my trunk or a case of beer - totally legal. But if i am in the exact same situation, except the joints and the case of beer are in the cabin (even if it is in the backseat and is in fully-sealed original packaging that was provably never opened) - I am in trouble. But the more serious barrier to this, as others have pointed out already, is that they cannot just pop your trunk to do anything shady with no probable cause. You can easily make up a probable cause that the driver looked impaired, even if that wasn’t the case, and then you can “inspect” the trunk and do whatever shady business you want. But a self-driving vehicle pretty much nullifies the possibility of that, because it eliminates sobriety of the person in the car from the equation.

tyingq 3y ago

It will be interesting to see what happens when the revenue drop from not being able to issue mundane violations gets noticed by their leaders.

foxyv 3y ago

It depends on the department and the officer's mission. If they are having a ton of problems with human trafficking they will start using pre-textual stops to search for that. If you are assigned specifically to traffic they will focus on reckless driving, distracted driving, drunk driving, or whatever is the huge problem that week. With regards to traffic infractions for self driving cars, I imagine that it would be an overall license for specific manufacturers or companies. If Waymo is causing problems then they could lose their license to operate in that jurisdiction. For personal vehicles like Teslas they would lose their personal license or just be plain banned from operating.

tqi 3y ago

Unless there is a acute public safety concern, I don't see why traffic citations for driverless cars couldn't be handled the same way red light camera violations are in many states: no traffic stop, just mail a citation/fine to the registered owner. No points on the driver.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]