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> There are many Arab countries all over the world, they are safe from Israel, Israel does not want to destroy all arabs in the same way that people want to des

> There are many Arab countries all over the world, they are safe from Israel, Israel does not want to destroy all arabs in the same way that people want to destroy all Jews. Some IDF soldiers are dancing, chanting "there are no schools in Gaza because there are no kids in Gaza" and "Gaza is a cemetary". The category of "Arabs" is not relevant here at all.

nailer 3y ago
> a state currently engaged in genocide > The category of "Arabs" is not relevant here at all. Do you think it's genocide or not?
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  On top of the collective punishment and other war crimes committed en masse, the aim to make Gaza unlivable for the people living there has been repeated by several Israeli politicians by now and even more importantly matches the actions of the IDF. Are you implying that genocide has necessarily to do with wanting to exterminate a so-called "race"? It does not. From Wikipedia: > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. The category of "Arabs" is therefore irrelevant. And moreover that's you counting people as that monolithic category, not the affected individuals doing it. How great "Arabs" have it somewhere else for whatever irrelevant reason doesn't help a person in Gaza, or justify crimes against humanity on them, just because they're "also Arabs". They are individual persons with names and all that.
  - nailer 3y ago
    > On top of the collective punishment and other war crimes committed en masse What collective punishment? If you are referring to the end of the free utilities, Hamas has a responsibility to provide it's citizens with water and electricity, Israel does not have any obligation to provide these services for free to a neighboring region. > Are you implying that genocide I'm implying nothing. Wikipedia is not a source, but let's use it anyway since you cited it: "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" - British Palestine was not a nation - the British mandate was a multi-ethnic territory, consisting of Jews, Arabs, Christians, and Druze. Likewise the Ottoman Empire beforehand. There has never been a Palestinian ethnostate run by arabs for arabs, although many arabs wished for one and tried to achieve an arab ethnostate in 1948, 67, and 73, and many "pro Palestinian" people still march today for an arab ethnostate. - The ethnic and racial group is arabs. Arabs outside Israel and Jordan in the former British Mandate called themselves arabs prior to 1960. There are no records of Palestinian people prior to this. The actual Philistines were Greek. Israel does not seek to destroy all arabs, as discussed previously. - Israel does not seek to destroy all Muslims either. So Israel does not seek to destroy any nation, any ethnic group, any race or any religion. > How great "Arabs" have it somewhere else doesn't prove... Arabs are real, I don't know why you have them in quotes. What it does prove is that your claim of genocide is false. While we're at it: just a reminder that Hamas rejected 3 ceasefires in the last week because you (and I say you because pro-Palestinians are inevitably pro Hamas) didn't want to give back the people they stole, including young women, six 79+ year olds, and at least one baby. Speaking of war crimes, would you say that gouging out a father's eyes, so he can listen as you saw off his daughter's leg, and listen as you cut off his sons fingers counts as a war crime? How does that compare in the 'war crimes' department to not giving someone free electricity?
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Gaza isn't a "neighboring region" of Israel. It was formally occupied for decades, and, before October 7, was de-facto occupied by dint of Israel controlling all its borders, waterfront, airspace, and access to the world. I don't believe there's a reasonable argument that says Israel isn't obligated to provide water and electricity. I write this bearing in mind that we're not going to resolve this, one of the world's most complicated conflicts, in a days-old HN thread.
      - nailer 3y ago
        Yes, Gaza is a neighbouring region of Israel. You can determine this by looking at a map. Gaza has borders to multiple countries, you can also determine this by looking at a map. After being given a $300 million flower export business in 2005, Gaza elected an organisation that wants to murder all Jewish people worldwide. As anyone can understand, Israel would likely close its border to such an awful region. I am glad that you can’t think there’s any good reason for Israel to not provide free utilities to Gaza - I think perhaps not being you can do so, may raise questions in your own mind. I am content not to resolve the issue in a hacker thread, however, I am doing you a favour by making you realise how ridiculous these arguments are. I once used to think along the same lines as you about Israel versus Palestine but then realise I was in a left-wing bubble full of provably false information.
        tptacek 3y ago
        There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006. The overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to ever have voted. Hamas won the 2006 election in large party by throwing PA supporters off of rooftops. The other side of this argument routinely overstates it case, but you're doing your side no favors here by pretending that Israel can cut Gaza off at its own discretion. It cannot.
        nailer 3y ago
        > The overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to ever have voted. That is true, but the majority of Gazans polled support the actions of Oct 7, and back in 2021 most supported Hamas in another polls. I do appreciate these polls may be answered under duress though and from what I see on video, there are definitely some people inside Gaza that are tired of living under Hamas. We just don't know how many. > you're doing your side no favors here by pretending that Israel can cut Gaza off at its own discretion. It cannot. I don't have a side asides from that of truth. I don't understand what the basis for this argument is - why can't Israel stop supplying utilities to Gaza? Israel probably will post-Hamas, since the UAE or whoever else would like them to do so, but ultimately it's at Israel's discretion.

nailer 3y ago

> a state currently engaged in genocide > The category of "Arabs" is not relevant here at all. Do you think it's genocide or not?

johnnyworker 3y ago
On top of the collective punishment and other war crimes committed en masse, the aim to make Gaza unlivable for the people living there has been repeated by several Israeli politicians by now and even more importantly matches the actions of the IDF. Are you implying that genocide has necessarily to do with wanting to exterminate a so-called "race"? It does not. From Wikipedia: > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. The category of "Arabs" is therefore irrelevant. And moreover that's you counting people as that monolithic category, not the affected individuals doing it. How great "Arabs" have it somewhere else for whatever irrelevant reason doesn't help a person in Gaza, or justify crimes against humanity on them, just because they're "also Arabs". They are individual persons with names and all that.
- nailer 3y ago
  > On top of the collective punishment and other war crimes committed en masse What collective punishment? If you are referring to the end of the free utilities, Hamas has a responsibility to provide it's citizens with water and electricity, Israel does not have any obligation to provide these services for free to a neighboring region. > Are you implying that genocide I'm implying nothing. Wikipedia is not a source, but let's use it anyway since you cited it: "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" - British Palestine was not a nation - the British mandate was a multi-ethnic territory, consisting of Jews, Arabs, Christians, and Druze. Likewise the Ottoman Empire beforehand. There has never been a Palestinian ethnostate run by arabs for arabs, although many arabs wished for one and tried to achieve an arab ethnostate in 1948, 67, and 73, and many "pro Palestinian" people still march today for an arab ethnostate. - The ethnic and racial group is arabs. Arabs outside Israel and Jordan in the former British Mandate called themselves arabs prior to 1960. There are no records of Palestinian people prior to this. The actual Philistines were Greek. Israel does not seek to destroy all arabs, as discussed previously. - Israel does not seek to destroy all Muslims either. So Israel does not seek to destroy any nation, any ethnic group, any race or any religion. > How great "Arabs" have it somewhere else doesn't prove... Arabs are real, I don't know why you have them in quotes. What it does prove is that your claim of genocide is false. While we're at it: just a reminder that Hamas rejected 3 ceasefires in the last week because you (and I say you because pro-Palestinians are inevitably pro Hamas) didn't want to give back the people they stole, including young women, six 79+ year olds, and at least one baby. Speaking of war crimes, would you say that gouging out a father's eyes, so he can listen as you saw off his daughter's leg, and listen as you cut off his sons fingers counts as a war crime? How does that compare in the 'war crimes' department to not giving someone free electricity?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Gaza isn't a "neighboring region" of Israel. It was formally occupied for decades, and, before October 7, was de-facto occupied by dint of Israel controlling all its borders, waterfront, airspace, and access to the world. I don't believe there's a reasonable argument that says Israel isn't obligated to provide water and electricity. I write this bearing in mind that we're not going to resolve this, one of the world's most complicated conflicts, in a days-old HN thread.
    - nailer 3y ago
      Yes, Gaza is a neighbouring region of Israel. You can determine this by looking at a map. Gaza has borders to multiple countries, you can also determine this by looking at a map. After being given a $300 million flower export business in 2005, Gaza elected an organisation that wants to murder all Jewish people worldwide. As anyone can understand, Israel would likely close its border to such an awful region. I am glad that you can’t think there’s any good reason for Israel to not provide free utilities to Gaza - I think perhaps not being you can do so, may raise questions in your own mind. I am content not to resolve the issue in a hacker thread, however, I am doing you a favour by making you realise how ridiculous these arguments are. I once used to think along the same lines as you about Israel versus Palestine but then realise I was in a left-wing bubble full of provably false information.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006. The overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to ever have voted. Hamas won the 2006 election in large party by throwing PA supporters off of rooftops. The other side of this argument routinely overstates it case, but you're doing your side no favors here by pretending that Israel can cut Gaza off at its own discretion. It cannot.
        nailer 3y ago
        > The overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to ever have voted. That is true, but the majority of Gazans polled support the actions of Oct 7, and back in 2021 most supported Hamas in another polls. I do appreciate these polls may be answered under duress though and from what I see on video, there are definitely some people inside Gaza that are tired of living under Hamas. We just don't know how many. > you're doing your side no favors here by pretending that Israel can cut Gaza off at its own discretion. It cannot. I don't have a side asides from that of truth. I don't understand what the basis for this argument is - why can't Israel stop supplying utilities to Gaza? Israel probably will post-Hamas, since the UAE or whoever else would like them to do so, but ultimately it's at Israel's discretion.