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> This, in turn, will enable competitors to replace app stores with directories of Progressive Web Apps. > Work is also underway to give competing browsers a c

> This, in turn, will enable competitors to replace app stores with directories of Progressive Web Apps. > Work is also underway to give competing browsers a chance to facilitate PWAs that can install other PWAs. Web App Stores would then become a real possibility through browsers that support them, and we should expect that regulatory and legislative interventions will facilitate this in the near future. Removed from the need to police security (browsers have that covered) and handle distribution (websites update themselves), PWA app stores like store.app can become honest-to-goodness app management surfaces that can safely facilitate discovery and sync. It's ironic that this article criticises tech media for sleeping on web apps and focusing on app store competition only to envision Web App Stores. There's no need for app stores on the web. We already have discovery (Hacker News) and search (Google). I could imagine a subreddit specifically for web apps, but is even that necessary?

CharlesW 3y ago
Additionally, it's not like Big Tech is somehow preventing PWApp Stores from being a thing. They're already a thing. https://store.app/ https://store.app/
- judah 3y ago
  The author mentions PWA stores like store.app, and some shortcomings: > PWA app stores like Appscope and store.app exist, but they're hobbled by gatekeepers that have denied competing browsers access to APIs that could turn PWA directories into real contenders.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    The author is simply wrong in this case. To make sure I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, I just went to store.app and added Microsoft Loop to my Home Screen in about 5 seconds. It was easier and faster than installing a native app!
    - postalrat 3y ago
      Try asking someone who doesn't know tech to do it on their iphone. Then ask someone who doesn't know tech to do it on their android phone.
      - CharlesW 3y ago
        I can’t speak for Android, but it’s hard to imagine how store.app’s instructions for iOS users could be simpler.
    - judah 3y ago
      PWA install experience is nice and easy on desktop, you're right. But to be clear, the author is saying that on mobile, especially on iOS, PWA capabilities are crippled. I say this with some authority, having worked on Microsoft's PWABuilder[0] including its iOS platform. There are a number of significant things not possible on iOS due to Apple's restrictions for web apps. Things are getting better on mobile, albeit slowly thanks to Apple's feet-dragging mentioned in the author's post. [0]: https://www.pwabuilder.com https://www.pwabuilder.com
      - CharlesW 3y ago
        > PWA install experience is nice and easy on desktop, you're right. Cool, I've only tried on mobile myself. Here's the iOS experience for anyone who hasn't tried PWApp stores: https://imgur.com/a/2VMbvOp https://imgur.com/a/2VMbvOp > …on mobile, especially on iOS, PWA capabilities are crippled. I say this with some authority, having worked on Microsoft's PWABuilder including its iOS platform. Great project, nice to meet you! I don't think I've hit these pain points as a user. What's your "top 3" of what Apple needs to do to make PWA installation suck less for iOS users? As a developer, I expect I would do exactly what you recommended in 2021 (https://blog.pwabuilder.com/posts/publish-your-pwa-to-the-ios-app-store/ https://blog.pwabuilder.com/posts/publish-your-pwa-to-the-io...), which is to distribute web apps on the App Store proper (using PWABuilder, Capacitor, etc.) instead of as a PWA for the benefits (discoverability, "normal" installation experience) you note. Is that still good advice from your perspective?
dns_snek 3y ago
I don't think that's fair, the concept of a "store" with user reviews, changelogs, detailed app information (e.g. permissions) is great. It only becomes a problem when a platform decides to act as a gatekeeper for the entire platform with insane rules & fees. Furthermore, social media is a really poor way to discover anything unless it happens to go viral. A general-purpose search engine such as Google is entirely suboptimal, as it can only match on keywords on the page. It doesn't address reviews or provide convenient (but optional) payment processing either. You shouldn't be forced to use one specific store, but their role is nonetheless valuable. Whether it's for apps, books, appliances, or food.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  I dunno, try looking for “qr code reader” on the play store and you will find the same spammy product listings that AMZN is choked with,
  - rpbiwer2 3y ago
    Android's app store may suck, but at least it's possible to start a competing store which sucks less.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      It's technically possible, but will force your users to go through additional configuration steps, decreasing your audience ten-fold.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  You have something like user reviews with comments on HN or reddit. Changelogs and permissions are more difficult as they require the app store to control hosting. I don't think any developer would accept that unless there's no other choice, and on the web there is. Google doesn't have reviews (why not?) but it can crawl every website that links to a web app, like an HN comment page, and use that to figure out what the web app is about.
thfuran 3y ago
While we're at it, we can get rid of yum and maven and just manually search forums for stuff to download.
- hobobaggins 3y ago
  How do you think things get into yum and maven in the first place?
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Even supposing that what you're suggesting were true, why would it be beneficial to have everyone repeatedly go through the same work?
Waterluvian 3y ago
> There's no need for app stores on the web. We already have discovery (Hacker News) Yikes. What about the other 99.9% of phone users? Google is a terrible choice for finding PC apps today, let alone phone apps.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  > Yikes. What about the other 99.9% of phone users? Those people can discover web apps on other websites.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    I think that fails to appreciate the needs and skills of most users. App stores shouldn’t have a monopoly but they’re still necessary. They provide a consistent location and format for finding, installing, updating, and reviewing apps. Saying “we have Hacker News for discoverability” is especially revealing of the lack of understanding and empathy tech people can often have for the majority of users. It’s also simply a foregone conclusion. There’s a demand for discoverability and consistency. Whatever fills that demand we could just call an App Store.
    - amadeuspagel 3y ago
      Normal people use websites and follow links. Understanding and empathy is one thing, condescension is another.
      - Waterluvian 3y ago
        You’re just describing an ill-suited App Store called a search engine. GOG, Steam, and Itch.io exist despite not locking down entire platforms. There must be some sort of demand for a consistent way to discover and access software.
        hobobaggins 3y ago
        It might seem incredible, but there are legends of entire companies being built without App Store access in times of yore.
fyrn_ 3y ago
Look, my grandmother is not going to browse hackernews so she can download the facebook. If she could search facebook on google and get a big old < Install > button next to the result, then maybe. But probably that won't happen on Google since they are incentivized not to for their 30% cut
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  In fact, google does return facebook as the first result when you search for "facebook"[1], and as for the install prompt that's something that facebook itself can show. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=facebook https://www.google.com/search?q=facebook
  - fyrn_ 3y ago
    How can Facebook add an install prompt to a page controlled by Google?

CharlesW 3y ago

Additionally, it's not like Big Tech is somehow preventing PWApp Stores from being a thing. They're already a thing. https://store.app/ https://store.app/

judah 3y ago
The author mentions PWA stores like store.app, and some shortcomings: > PWA app stores like Appscope and store.app exist, but they're hobbled by gatekeepers that have denied competing browsers access to APIs that could turn PWA directories into real contenders.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  The author is simply wrong in this case. To make sure I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, I just went to store.app and added Microsoft Loop to my Home Screen in about 5 seconds. It was easier and faster than installing a native app!
  - postalrat 3y ago
    Try asking someone who doesn't know tech to do it on their iphone. Then ask someone who doesn't know tech to do it on their android phone.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      I can’t speak for Android, but it’s hard to imagine how store.app’s instructions for iOS users could be simpler.
  - judah 3y ago
    PWA install experience is nice and easy on desktop, you're right. But to be clear, the author is saying that on mobile, especially on iOS, PWA capabilities are crippled. I say this with some authority, having worked on Microsoft's PWABuilder[0] including its iOS platform. There are a number of significant things not possible on iOS due to Apple's restrictions for web apps. Things are getting better on mobile, albeit slowly thanks to Apple's feet-dragging mentioned in the author's post. [0]: https://www.pwabuilder.com https://www.pwabuilder.com
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      > PWA install experience is nice and easy on desktop, you're right. Cool, I've only tried on mobile myself. Here's the iOS experience for anyone who hasn't tried PWApp stores: https://imgur.com/a/2VMbvOp https://imgur.com/a/2VMbvOp > …on mobile, especially on iOS, PWA capabilities are crippled. I say this with some authority, having worked on Microsoft's PWABuilder including its iOS platform. Great project, nice to meet you! I don't think I've hit these pain points as a user. What's your "top 3" of what Apple needs to do to make PWA installation suck less for iOS users? As a developer, I expect I would do exactly what you recommended in 2021 (https://blog.pwabuilder.com/posts/publish-your-pwa-to-the-ios-app-store/ https://blog.pwabuilder.com/posts/publish-your-pwa-to-the-io...), which is to distribute web apps on the App Store proper (using PWABuilder, Capacitor, etc.) instead of as a PWA for the benefits (discoverability, "normal" installation experience) you note. Is that still good advice from your perspective?

dns_snek 3y ago

I don't think that's fair, the concept of a "store" with user reviews, changelogs, detailed app information (e.g. permissions) is great. It only becomes a problem when a platform decides to act as a gatekeeper for the entire platform with insane rules & fees. Furthermore, social media is a really poor way to discover anything unless it happens to go viral. A general-purpose search engine such as Google is entirely suboptimal, as it can only match on keywords on the page. It doesn't address reviews or provide convenient (but optional) payment processing either. You shouldn't be forced to use one specific store, but their role is nonetheless valuable. Whether it's for apps, books, appliances, or food.

PaulHoule 3y ago
I dunno, try looking for “qr code reader” on the play store and you will find the same spammy product listings that AMZN is choked with,
- rpbiwer2 3y ago
  Android's app store may suck, but at least it's possible to start a competing store which sucks less.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    It's technically possible, but will force your users to go through additional configuration steps, decreasing your audience ten-fold.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
You have something like user reviews with comments on HN or reddit. Changelogs and permissions are more difficult as they require the app store to control hosting. I don't think any developer would accept that unless there's no other choice, and on the web there is. Google doesn't have reviews (why not?) but it can crawl every website that links to a web app, like an HN comment page, and use that to figure out what the web app is about.

thfuran 3y ago

While we're at it, we can get rid of yum and maven and just manually search forums for stuff to download.

hobobaggins 3y ago
How do you think things get into yum and maven in the first place?
- thfuran 3y ago
  Even supposing that what you're suggesting were true, why would it be beneficial to have everyone repeatedly go through the same work?

Waterluvian 3y ago

> There's no need for app stores on the web. We already have discovery (Hacker News) Yikes. What about the other 99.9% of phone users? Google is a terrible choice for finding PC apps today, let alone phone apps.

amadeuspagel 3y ago
> Yikes. What about the other 99.9% of phone users? Those people can discover web apps on other websites.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  I think that fails to appreciate the needs and skills of most users. App stores shouldn’t have a monopoly but they’re still necessary. They provide a consistent location and format for finding, installing, updating, and reviewing apps. Saying “we have Hacker News for discoverability” is especially revealing of the lack of understanding and empathy tech people can often have for the majority of users. It’s also simply a foregone conclusion. There’s a demand for discoverability and consistency. Whatever fills that demand we could just call an App Store.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    Normal people use websites and follow links. Understanding and empathy is one thing, condescension is another.
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      You’re just describing an ill-suited App Store called a search engine. GOG, Steam, and Itch.io exist despite not locking down entire platforms. There must be some sort of demand for a consistent way to discover and access software.
      - hobobaggins 3y ago
        It might seem incredible, but there are legends of entire companies being built without App Store access in times of yore.

fyrn_ 3y ago

Look, my grandmother is not going to browse hackernews so she can download the facebook. If she could search facebook on google and get a big old < Install > button next to the result, then maybe. But probably that won't happen on Google since they are incentivized not to for their 30% cut

amadeuspagel 3y ago
In fact, google does return facebook as the first result when you search for "facebook"[1], and as for the install prompt that's something that facebook itself can show. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=facebook https://www.google.com/search?q=facebook
- fyrn_ 3y ago
  How can Facebook add an install prompt to a page controlled by Google?