5 ms·

Do you feel that including drugs in the therapy was a benefit over more common dialog-type therapy? If so how was it different?

radicaldreamer 3y ago
I'm curious about this as well, a lot of studies have shown that psychedelic therapy is most effective when bracketed by talk therapy -- the brain plasticity (or anti-inflammatory effects, the jury is still out) induced by psychedelics open the mind to the suggestions of talk therapy and that without talk therapy (or some kind of self dialogue perhaps?) psychedelics are not as effective.
- labrador 3y ago
  There's a ton of free lectures on psychedelics and therapy. Ram Dass aka Richard Alpert comes to mind. Stanislav Grof is another. I can't afford to see a therapist anymore, but maybe going right to the source for free is better. I do a lot of writing too. Actually at this point I'd be surprised if I got any benefit out of doing a trip with a psychedelic therapist.
- beenBoutIT 3y ago
  The studies are designed this way to keep the shaman in the equation when the drugs become treatments. Informal polling over decades shows MDMA is pretty impressive on its own. We need a clinical study where a group of veterans with PTSD is given MDMA and an isolated quiet place to go for several hours. Each of them is told they're receiving a drug that cures PTSD. The placebo effect paired with the brain rewiring effect of MDMA will cure more people than any other method and demonstrate that the effect is self-contained.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    I'd take the bet that MDMA + talk therapy is more effective than MDMA alone, based on the theory of action that recollection is not a read-only operation in the brain, and traumatic memories remain as such in no small part due to the intense negative emotions experienced when recalling them. By forcing/encouraging recollection of traumatic memories, while subduing the negative emotions with MDMA, the connection between those strong negative emotions and the memories are weakened. Basically, the MDMA subdues the negative emotions, and the talk therapy forces recollection. Without the latter, you just have a pleasant trip, but I highly doubt real progress would be made against the trauma.
    - labrador 3y ago
      It depends on how much study you do before hand and how much you go into the session with intention. If you're not good at self-education then I agree a therapist as a guide is helpful.
      - beenBoutIT 3y ago
        Worst-case scenario you might just have a wonderful time for several hours and decide you'd like to do it again with some kind of guide. Anecdotally it's very uncommon to hear about people having a bad time or even a neutral experience on MDMA in any number of settings.
- matrix87 3y ago
  > and that without talk therapy (or some kind of self dialogue perhaps?) psychedelics are not as effective. Probably because there aren't any people there looking for specific boxes to check Doing this in front of one of them is a horrible idea because it all gets documented. That's not a very relaxing environment tbh, it isn't a relationship where you are both on equal footing And this all gets exacerbated if the therapist has their own issues that you aren't aware of
labrador 3y ago
Oh yes, nitrous oxide for example lets me surface and approach traumatic events without over-whelming anxiety that blocks the memory out. I've done years of talk therapy without drugs and the problem is that it's hard to let go of my ego personality when I'm talking to another person and it also takes a long time to get a therapist up to speed about what is going on with me internally, because I don't often even know. I did MDMA therapy with an alternative/underground therapist in the 90's and didn't get much out of it because it felt like the experience conformed to her expectations. I didn't feel free to let my mind wander. I'm not knocking dialog-type therapy or psychedelic therapy, but maybe I'm built different and as a computer programmer figured out how to use these drugs to debug myself.
- UberFly 3y ago
  Thank you - great info. Hope you keep making progress.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  > it's hard to let go of my ego This is what mindfulness meditation is best for. Drugs are just a cop out.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - carpo 3y ago
    Why does it matter how someone achieves this? If it helps them and doesn't hurt anyone else, your view on the "correct" way to achieve it is really only you virtue signalling.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    "Drugs are just a cop out" sounds like a massive ego talking. A tool is a tool, and there's no shame in using powerful tools to achieve a goal. Sometimes our goals might be to overcome a challenge with sub-par tools, like climbing Everest without supplemental oxygen, but most of the time our goals are simply the accomplishment in of itself, utilizing whatever tools we have available.
willsoon 3y ago
Absolutely. Both are necessary.

radicaldreamer 3y ago

I'm curious about this as well, a lot of studies have shown that psychedelic therapy is most effective when bracketed by talk therapy -- the brain plasticity (or anti-inflammatory effects, the jury is still out) induced by psychedelics open the mind to the suggestions of talk therapy and that without talk therapy (or some kind of self dialogue perhaps?) psychedelics are not as effective.

labrador 3y ago
There's a ton of free lectures on psychedelics and therapy. Ram Dass aka Richard Alpert comes to mind. Stanislav Grof is another. I can't afford to see a therapist anymore, but maybe going right to the source for free is better. I do a lot of writing too. Actually at this point I'd be surprised if I got any benefit out of doing a trip with a psychedelic therapist.
beenBoutIT 3y ago
The studies are designed this way to keep the shaman in the equation when the drugs become treatments. Informal polling over decades shows MDMA is pretty impressive on its own. We need a clinical study where a group of veterans with PTSD is given MDMA and an isolated quiet place to go for several hours. Each of them is told they're receiving a drug that cures PTSD. The placebo effect paired with the brain rewiring effect of MDMA will cure more people than any other method and demonstrate that the effect is self-contained.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  I'd take the bet that MDMA + talk therapy is more effective than MDMA alone, based on the theory of action that recollection is not a read-only operation in the brain, and traumatic memories remain as such in no small part due to the intense negative emotions experienced when recalling them. By forcing/encouraging recollection of traumatic memories, while subduing the negative emotions with MDMA, the connection between those strong negative emotions and the memories are weakened. Basically, the MDMA subdues the negative emotions, and the talk therapy forces recollection. Without the latter, you just have a pleasant trip, but I highly doubt real progress would be made against the trauma.
  - labrador 3y ago
    It depends on how much study you do before hand and how much you go into the session with intention. If you're not good at self-education then I agree a therapist as a guide is helpful.
    - beenBoutIT 3y ago
      Worst-case scenario you might just have a wonderful time for several hours and decide you'd like to do it again with some kind of guide. Anecdotally it's very uncommon to hear about people having a bad time or even a neutral experience on MDMA in any number of settings.
matrix87 3y ago
> and that without talk therapy (or some kind of self dialogue perhaps?) psychedelics are not as effective. Probably because there aren't any people there looking for specific boxes to check Doing this in front of one of them is a horrible idea because it all gets documented. That's not a very relaxing environment tbh, it isn't a relationship where you are both on equal footing And this all gets exacerbated if the therapist has their own issues that you aren't aware of

labrador 3y ago

Oh yes, nitrous oxide for example lets me surface and approach traumatic events without over-whelming anxiety that blocks the memory out. I've done years of talk therapy without drugs and the problem is that it's hard to let go of my ego personality when I'm talking to another person and it also takes a long time to get a therapist up to speed about what is going on with me internally, because I don't often even know. I did MDMA therapy with an alternative/underground therapist in the 90's and didn't get much out of it because it felt like the experience conformed to her expectations. I didn't feel free to let my mind wander. I'm not knocking dialog-type therapy or psychedelic therapy, but maybe I'm built different and as a computer programmer figured out how to use these drugs to debug myself.

UberFly 3y ago
Thank you - great info. Hope you keep making progress.
zozbot234 3y ago
> it's hard to let go of my ego This is what mindfulness meditation is best for. Drugs are just a cop out.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- carpo 3y ago
  Why does it matter how someone achieves this? If it helps them and doesn't hurt anyone else, your view on the "correct" way to achieve it is really only you virtue signalling.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  "Drugs are just a cop out" sounds like a massive ego talking. A tool is a tool, and there's no shame in using powerful tools to achieve a goal. Sometimes our goals might be to overcome a challenge with sub-par tools, like climbing Everest without supplemental oxygen, but most of the time our goals are simply the accomplishment in of itself, utilizing whatever tools we have available.

willsoon 3y ago

Absolutely. Both are necessary.