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I think the point is that most people in prison didn't kill someone and most people come out. We would never choose for them to "just not come out" so the quest

I think the point is that most people in prison didn't kill someone and most people come out. We would never choose for them to "just not come out" so the question is "How do you want them to act when they come out?" Does it lead to better outcomes to rehabilitate the person who is in there for 5 years because they stole TVs from Best Buy, or does it lead to better outcomes for us to do nothing and then release them. Genuine question. We've done the latter, let's try something different.

lupusreal 3y ago
When they say the prison cells would ideally be eliminated, they're not talking about a magical society in which rape and murderer no longer happen. They're talking about releasing rapists and murderers without locking them up. That's the ideal they're striving for.
- roughly 3y ago
  > When they say the prison cells would ideally be eliminated, they're not talking about a magical society in which rape and murderer no longer happen. They're talking about releasing rapists and murderers without locking them up. That's the ideal they're striving for. In general, when you're presenting your opponent's ideas as this level of two-dimensional magical thinking, you probably haven't engaged with the ideas enough to have this strong of an opinion about it. The prison abolition movement has been around for a long time, and has indeed grappled with the idea of "but what if someone murders someone?", which is indeed the absolute first question someone arrives at when considering prison abolition.
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    If you don't have prison cells, then you don't have incarceration of murderers. If that isn't what they intend then they should say so upfront. Instead they prefer to avoid the issue and whine about people bringing it up (what you're doing.)
    - roughly 3y ago
      There's an entire philosophical, legal, and structural framework the prison abolition movement is working in that you've got absolutely no basis in. This is like asking whether drug legalization advocates are advocating that drug dealers get off scot-free - the premise of the question is silly within the frame of the discussion. You're trying to position this like a "gotcha" question, which is why nobody's bothering to engage with you - because you haven't bothered to engage with the issue in any serious way yourself.
      - lupusreal 3y ago
        Again, you whine about me bringing it up without bothering to explain why I'm wrong. Even if you give murderers the Anders Breivek treatment with a cushy apartment style prison cell complete with gaming consoles and arts and crafts sessions, that's still a prison cell. You can dress it up to make it pretty, but he's still locked up, taken out of society, which is what both he and society deserves. If that is what is meant by the abolition of prisons, then it should be called prison reform instead. Prison reform I can get behind, but that's not what is actually being proposed. That's the motte the prison abolition radicals fall back on when challenged, not what they're actually calling for.
- terminous 3y ago
  Stop with this strawman argument. They're not saying criminals should just be released immediately and forgotten about until they commit their next crime. If you sincerely believe that this is the position of criminal justice reform advocates, you have been misled. They're talking about criminals being housed in something other than a tiny cage with other criminals 23/7, who are all treated like they are irredeemable criminals who should never be allowed to re-enter society, even though most of them don't have life sentences. Turns out if you do that, the micro-society that results among prisoners is a warped society where criminality is rampant and normal. The strategies you learn to live in the prison society will cause you to become more of a criminal once you are released into the larger society, not less of one. In other words, prisons as they are currently run in the US are effectively a crime training program. In what world is that logical? In what world would we not ask ourselves, "Is this really working? Should we at least try something else?"
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    A prison cell by another name is still a prison cell. Unless we go back to executing murderers the day of their conviction, we will always need prison cells.

lupusreal 3y ago

When they say the prison cells would ideally be eliminated, they're not talking about a magical society in which rape and murderer no longer happen. They're talking about releasing rapists and murderers without locking them up. That's the ideal they're striving for.

roughly 3y ago
> When they say the prison cells would ideally be eliminated, they're not talking about a magical society in which rape and murderer no longer happen. They're talking about releasing rapists and murderers without locking them up. That's the ideal they're striving for. In general, when you're presenting your opponent's ideas as this level of two-dimensional magical thinking, you probably haven't engaged with the ideas enough to have this strong of an opinion about it. The prison abolition movement has been around for a long time, and has indeed grappled with the idea of "but what if someone murders someone?", which is indeed the absolute first question someone arrives at when considering prison abolition.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  If you don't have prison cells, then you don't have incarceration of murderers. If that isn't what they intend then they should say so upfront. Instead they prefer to avoid the issue and whine about people bringing it up (what you're doing.)
  - roughly 3y ago
    There's an entire philosophical, legal, and structural framework the prison abolition movement is working in that you've got absolutely no basis in. This is like asking whether drug legalization advocates are advocating that drug dealers get off scot-free - the premise of the question is silly within the frame of the discussion. You're trying to position this like a "gotcha" question, which is why nobody's bothering to engage with you - because you haven't bothered to engage with the issue in any serious way yourself.
    - lupusreal 3y ago
      Again, you whine about me bringing it up without bothering to explain why I'm wrong. Even if you give murderers the Anders Breivek treatment with a cushy apartment style prison cell complete with gaming consoles and arts and crafts sessions, that's still a prison cell. You can dress it up to make it pretty, but he's still locked up, taken out of society, which is what both he and society deserves. If that is what is meant by the abolition of prisons, then it should be called prison reform instead. Prison reform I can get behind, but that's not what is actually being proposed. That's the motte the prison abolition radicals fall back on when challenged, not what they're actually calling for.
terminous 3y ago
Stop with this strawman argument. They're not saying criminals should just be released immediately and forgotten about until they commit their next crime. If you sincerely believe that this is the position of criminal justice reform advocates, you have been misled. They're talking about criminals being housed in something other than a tiny cage with other criminals 23/7, who are all treated like they are irredeemable criminals who should never be allowed to re-enter society, even though most of them don't have life sentences. Turns out if you do that, the micro-society that results among prisoners is a warped society where criminality is rampant and normal. The strategies you learn to live in the prison society will cause you to become more of a criminal once you are released into the larger society, not less of one. In other words, prisons as they are currently run in the US are effectively a crime training program. In what world is that logical? In what world would we not ask ourselves, "Is this really working? Should we at least try something else?"
- lupusreal 3y ago
  A prison cell by another name is still a prison cell. Unless we go back to executing murderers the day of their conviction, we will always need prison cells.