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People improve themselves for reasons beyond monetary gain, therefore money is not the sole motivating force. Your belief that "there's always a tendency to av

by Clent 3y ago

People improve themselves for reasons beyond monetary gain, therefore money is not the sole motivating force. Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Ignoring the affects of American's economic system and the role it plays in our growing mental health issues is itself not mentally healthy. Blaming each of the millions of individuals for not thriving for personal failings in a system we control is sociopathic.

cheeseomlit 3y ago
> Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Not wanting to take responsibility for problems is human nature, and I'd say your denial of it 'says more about your personal view of the world'. Its comforting to blame others when things go wrong so we often do, whether its justified or not. I don't see whats so controversial about that observation. As for stress in America, there are as many reasons for it as there are Americans. Just because there is an increase in 'suicide, depression, anxiety' doesn't mean you should uncritically ascribe it all to whatever your pet political issue happens to be > Ignoring the affects of American's economic system and the role it plays in our growing mental health issues is itself not mentally healthy. Blaming each of the millions of individuals for not thriving for personal failings in a system we control is sociopathic. I never implied I was ignoring the issues with American economics, I'm just trying not to deal in absolutes and blame it all on either the system or the individuals within it- a reasonable take would be to blame the system for its shortcomings and the individuals for theirs, not to maginify or ignore one or the other. One could easily argue that your mindset is just as mentally debilitating as the one you criticize- IE. the removal of personal agency by blaming the system encourages feelings of helplessness- 'There's no point in trying to improve my lot in life because the system will always keep me down', causing people to miss out on opportunities they'd otherwise take advantage of, keeping them down and increasing their feelings of 'depression and anxiety'
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  There are ultimately a lot of assumptions here that amount to you really, really sitting on the fence super hard. You assume that blaming the system encourages helplessness, I argue blaming the system encourages people to try and change the system. For example, the medical system in America is the reason why my family was poor. Therefore, I firmly believe the medical system should be torn down and replaced with something better. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is a problem.
  - cheeseomlit 3y ago
    You say fence-sitting, I say moderate. Anyways, you're absolutely right that 'The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is a problem.' My argument is that principle applies for both the system and the individual, not just one or the other. Blaming the system encourages systemic change, but blaming the individual can encourage personal change. It depends on the situation. Often both are at fault to different degrees and just blame each other, never acknowledging their own faults. To your point, sometimes the system really is a rotten edifice of garbage that needs to be eradicated and rebuilt. I have my own experiences with the american medical system and I'm with you there completely. I don't think any amount of personal merit is going to help you navigate that particular system, its fundamentally broken. So yes the blame there is justified, and hopefully that blame does encourage it to change. On the other hand, to give a topical example- Let's say Jimmy weighs 600 lbs and never exercised a day in his life, and now he's facing an absurd medical bill for his heart surgery. There's plenty of blame to go around there, there are certainly some systemic factors at play (not the least of which being the medical system taking advantage of him), but to completely absolve Jimmy of personal responsibility for his poor choices and just blame the system is unhealthy, and does encourage a sense of individual helplessness. Yes the system should be blamed and changed for all the things it did wrong, but so should Jimmy The point is that blame should be assigned where its deserved in the degree that it's deserved, but often the individualists will just blame the individual and the collectivists will blame the system, with no nuance in between

by Clent 3y ago

cheeseomlit 3y ago

> Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Not wanting to take responsibility for problems is human nature, and I'd say your denial of it 'says more about your personal view of the world'. Its comforting to blame others when things go wrong so we often do, whether its justified or not. I don't see whats so controversial about that observation. As for stress in America, there are as many reasons for it as there are Americans. Just because there is an increase in 'suicide, depression, anxiety' doesn't mean you should uncritically ascribe it all to whatever your pet political issue happens to be > Ignoring the affects of American's economic system and the role it plays in our growing mental health issues is itself not mentally healthy. Blaming each of the millions of individuals for not thriving for personal failings in a system we control is sociopathic. I never implied I was ignoring the issues with American economics, I'm just trying not to deal in absolutes and blame it all on either the system or the individuals within it- a reasonable take would be to blame the system for its shortcomings and the individuals for theirs, not to maginify or ignore one or the other. One could easily argue that your mindset is just as mentally debilitating as the one you criticize- IE. the removal of personal agency by blaming the system encourages feelings of helplessness- 'There's no point in trying to improve my lot in life because the system will always keep me down', causing people to miss out on opportunities they'd otherwise take advantage of, keeping them down and increasing their feelings of 'depression and anxiety'

fzeroracer 3y ago
There are ultimately a lot of assumptions here that amount to you really, really sitting on the fence super hard. You assume that blaming the system encourages helplessness, I argue blaming the system encourages people to try and change the system. For example, the medical system in America is the reason why my family was poor. Therefore, I firmly believe the medical system should be torn down and replaced with something better. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is a problem.
- cheeseomlit 3y ago
  You say fence-sitting, I say moderate. Anyways, you're absolutely right that 'The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is a problem.' My argument is that principle applies for both the system and the individual, not just one or the other. Blaming the system encourages systemic change, but blaming the individual can encourage personal change. It depends on the situation. Often both are at fault to different degrees and just blame each other, never acknowledging their own faults. To your point, sometimes the system really is a rotten edifice of garbage that needs to be eradicated and rebuilt. I have my own experiences with the american medical system and I'm with you there completely. I don't think any amount of personal merit is going to help you navigate that particular system, its fundamentally broken. So yes the blame there is justified, and hopefully that blame does encourage it to change. On the other hand, to give a topical example- Let's say Jimmy weighs 600 lbs and never exercised a day in his life, and now he's facing an absurd medical bill for his heart surgery. There's plenty of blame to go around there, there are certainly some systemic factors at play (not the least of which being the medical system taking advantage of him), but to completely absolve Jimmy of personal responsibility for his poor choices and just blame the system is unhealthy, and does encourage a sense of individual helplessness. Yes the system should be blamed and changed for all the things it did wrong, but so should Jimmy The point is that blame should be assigned where its deserved in the degree that it's deserved, but often the individualists will just blame the individual and the collectivists will blame the system, with no nuance in between