3 ms·

>forgetting is a filter Exactly. Spaced repetition is a remarkably effective learning technique, but it can't tell you what to learn. At some point I think we

>forgetting is a filter Exactly. Spaced repetition is a remarkably effective learning technique, but it can't tell you what to learn. At some point I think we have to stop listening to external authorities and rely on our own judgement about what to learn, and how to do so, as signalled by feelings of excitement about particular authors and ideas. One of the effects of formal education is to dampen or corrupt that intuition, e.g. by instilling the desire to learn things 'properly' (say in a certain prearranged sequence) or by the desire to only learn prestigious topics in order to impress other people. If we are engaged meaningfully with reality we will inevitably revisit particular subjects or authors multiple times. This is an organic form of spaced repetition. Forgetting certain things is part of that: we learn to swim during the winter and to skate during the summer.

bunderbunder 3y ago
I'm coming to wonder if tools like Anki are even detrimental for most learning tasks. Because SRS is built around rote memorizing a bunch of isolated factoids, while the most important part of mastering most subjects is not memorizing facts, it's learning interactions and patterns that let you make use of those facts. Like, imagine if someone learning to program put a huge amount of their effort into using flashcards to memorize the functions in their preferred language's standard library. I think most people would agree that this person is wasting their time because IDE tooling and Internet searches make it really easy to look up that information on an as-needed basis. So the real effort should be put into learning skills like domain modeling or how to read and debug code. I think that the same principle might apply to most subjects. Even in language learning, one of the places where SRS is most popular. Academics seem to be pretty skeptical of using any sort of flashcarding to learn vocabulary. In part because the empirical evidence doesn't actually seem to support it, and in part on theoretical grounds. The contemporary model for how the brain models language is fundamentally connectionist. Definitions and lemmas aren't something we naturally memorize as a list of facts and then plug into a grammar, which is why native speakers often have difficulty reciting conjugation tables or defining words. I think that formal education's tendency toward representing subjects as lists of factoids is fundamentally another manifestation of the McNamara Fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy). As long as educators have a mandate to (ostensibly) objectively quantify students' progress with grades and scores, they will have a need to represent the subject manner in a manner that permits easy quantification. And they will have to do so regardless of whether it actually makes sense to do so for whatever subject they're teaching.
- Tallain 3y ago
  I can anecdotally support the criticism of Anki / SRS for language learning, at least as far as rote word definition memorization goes. While learning Thai -- which is a difficult language already -- I continually struggled with word definitions that should have been easy. How hard is it to remember the words for the various parts of your head and body? With just word definitions, apparently, it's really, really hard. But then I supplemented this with other tools. One teaches a few words, then throw those words into full phrases in little quizlets. You pick out the written phrase which you think matches the spoken phrase. It always includes one or some of the words you've learned. It puts the words in context, cementing the definition, teaching you grammar, and "foreshadowing" new words. It's skyrocketed my retention and comprehension. Pictures also help. Children's books with audio narrating are huge. I guess my point is, Anki with word definitions alone is definitely garbage, or less than ideal at best. Which is why most language learning resources stress that it alone isn't enough - and most learning resources who push Anki (or SRS in general) don't say "do only this." It's part of a balanced breakfast, so to speak. Incorporate it into your workflow, but don't make it the workflow.
  - bunderbunder 3y ago
    So, here's where it gets wild: a couple years ago I stumbled across a study with two treatment groups. The first group was just given graded readers targeting certain vocabulary, and was asked to read them as much as they like. The second was given the same graded readers, but also asked to use flashcards to review the target vocabulary. So, the flashcard group was just using flashcards as a supplement to extensive reading. Well, at the end of the treatment period, both groups had the same vocabulary retention. But a couple months later they tested again, and the "no flashcards" group had better retention of the target vocabulary. And not by a small amount, either.
    - Tallain 3y ago
      That is super interesting. Do you happen to have a link still? I'd love to learn more. I wonder how applicable it is to learning new languages as opposed to new words in a native / near-native language.

bunderbunder 3y ago

I'm coming to wonder if tools like Anki are even detrimental for most learning tasks. Because SRS is built around rote memorizing a bunch of isolated factoids, while the most important part of mastering most subjects is not memorizing facts, it's learning interactions and patterns that let you make use of those facts. Like, imagine if someone learning to program put a huge amount of their effort into using flashcards to memorize the functions in their preferred language's standard library. I think most people would agree that this person is wasting their time because IDE tooling and Internet searches make it really easy to look up that information on an as-needed basis. So the real effort should be put into learning skills like domain modeling or how to read and debug code. I think that the same principle might apply to most subjects. Even in language learning, one of the places where SRS is most popular. Academics seem to be pretty skeptical of using any sort of flashcarding to learn vocabulary. In part because the empirical evidence doesn't actually seem to support it, and in part on theoretical grounds. The contemporary model for how the brain models language is fundamentally connectionist. Definitions and lemmas aren't something we naturally memorize as a list of facts and then plug into a grammar, which is why native speakers often have difficulty reciting conjugation tables or defining words. I think that formal education's tendency toward representing subjects as lists of factoids is fundamentally another manifestation of the McNamara Fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy). As long as educators have a mandate to (ostensibly) objectively quantify students' progress with grades and scores, they will have a need to represent the subject manner in a manner that permits easy quantification. And they will have to do so regardless of whether it actually makes sense to do so for whatever subject they're teaching.

Tallain 3y ago
I can anecdotally support the criticism of Anki / SRS for language learning, at least as far as rote word definition memorization goes. While learning Thai -- which is a difficult language already -- I continually struggled with word definitions that should have been easy. How hard is it to remember the words for the various parts of your head and body? With just word definitions, apparently, it's really, really hard. But then I supplemented this with other tools. One teaches a few words, then throw those words into full phrases in little quizlets. You pick out the written phrase which you think matches the spoken phrase. It always includes one or some of the words you've learned. It puts the words in context, cementing the definition, teaching you grammar, and "foreshadowing" new words. It's skyrocketed my retention and comprehension. Pictures also help. Children's books with audio narrating are huge. I guess my point is, Anki with word definitions alone is definitely garbage, or less than ideal at best. Which is why most language learning resources stress that it alone isn't enough - and most learning resources who push Anki (or SRS in general) don't say "do only this." It's part of a balanced breakfast, so to speak. Incorporate it into your workflow, but don't make it the workflow.
- bunderbunder 3y ago
  So, here's where it gets wild: a couple years ago I stumbled across a study with two treatment groups. The first group was just given graded readers targeting certain vocabulary, and was asked to read them as much as they like. The second was given the same graded readers, but also asked to use flashcards to review the target vocabulary. So, the flashcard group was just using flashcards as a supplement to extensive reading. Well, at the end of the treatment period, both groups had the same vocabulary retention. But a couple months later they tested again, and the "no flashcards" group had better retention of the target vocabulary. And not by a small amount, either.
  - Tallain 3y ago
    That is super interesting. Do you happen to have a link still? I'd love to learn more. I wonder how applicable it is to learning new languages as opposed to new words in a native / near-native language.