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Maybe it’s just me, but every lossless codec that’s: 1. Not FLAC 2. Not as open-source as FLAC comes across as a patent play. FLAC is excellent and widely s

Maybe it’s just me, but every lossless codec that’s: 1. Not FLAC 2. Not as open-source as FLAC comes across as a patent play. FLAC is excellent and widely supported (and where it’s not supported some new at-least-open-enough codec will also not be supported). I have yet to see a compelling argument for lossless audio encoders that are not FLAC.

adastra22 3y ago
FLAC’s compression algorithm was pretty much garbage when it came out, and is much worse now compared to the state of the art. Even mp3 + gzip residuals would probably compress better. FLAC doesn’t support more modern sampling formats (e.g. floating point for mastering), or complex multi channel compression for surround sound formats. There just isn’t something better (and free) to replace it yet.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > There just isn’t something better (and free) to replace it yet. Apple's ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) format is an open-source and patent-free alternative. I believe both ALAC and FLAC support up to 8 channels of audio, which allows them to support 5.1 and 7.1 surround. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless_Audio_Codec#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless_Audio_Codec#His... These are distribution formats, so I'd be surprised if there were demand for floating-point audio support. And in contexts where floating point audio is used, audio size is not really a problem.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    When FLAC compresses stereo audio, it does a diff of the left and right channels and compresses that. This often results in a 2x additional compression ratio because the left and right channels are tightly correlated. Unless things have changed substantially and I missed it, FLAC does not do similar tricks for other multichannel audio modes. Meaning that for surround sound, each channel is independently compressed and it is unable to exploit signal correlation between channels. Proprietary formats like Dolby on the other hand do support rather intelligent handling of multichannel modes. FLAC is not solely a distribution format. Indeed as a distribution format it sucks in a number of ways. It is chiefly used as an archival format, and would in fact be ideal as a mastering format if these deficiencies Could be addressed.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      In what ways does flac suck for distribution? All the music I download from Bandcamp is in that format, it works great for me.
      - adastra22 3y ago
        It could be much smaller, maybe 2-3x better compression. Better support for surround sound / multichannel audio. If an AAC stream were used for the lossy predictive stage, then existing hardware acceleration could be used for energy efficient playback.
        crtasm 3y ago
        How would 2-3x better compression be achievable? I don't use or desire multichannel audio but that and the hardware acceleration are interesting points.
        adastra22 3y ago
        FLAC uses 1970’s era compression technology for both compression stages (lossy and residual) in order to conservatively avoid patents in the implementation. Just replace the lossy component with AAC, which is now out of patent protection, and replace Rice coding for the residual with the much better (but was still patented in the 90’s) arithmetic coding. Those two changes should get 2-4x performance improvement, as well as hardware accelerated encoding and playback as a free bonus. Multichannel audio support is nice because it is often used in distribution of media files sourced from DVD/BluRay. It would be good to have a high quality, free codec for that use.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        crtasm 3y ago
        Thanks. I would love to see a PoC of this making my music files that much smaller.
- redeeman 3y ago
  what do you suggest instead?
  - adastra22 3y ago
    I suggest that people who care enough about these things (not me, I’m just informed about it), come together and make a new lossless encoder format that has feature parity with the proprietary/“professional” codecs.
    - redeeman 3y ago
      what codec are you suggesting is better, and how much better is it? unless encoders have wildly improved, alac's from apple is not better than flac. ape and wavpack seems to do a bit better, but not much
- joshspankit 3y ago
  > FLAC’s compression algorithm was pretty much garbage when it came out, and is much worse now compared to the state of the art. Even mp3 + gzip residuals would probably compress better. MP3 is a lossy format so I would practically guarantee that you’d end up with a smaller file but that’s not the purpose of FLAC. Lossless encoding makes a file smaller than WAV while still being the same data. > e.g. floating point for mastering I’m 0% sold on floating point for mastering. 32bit yes, but anyone who’s played a video game can tell you about those flickering textures and those are caused not by bad floating point calculations, but by good floating point calculations (the bad part is putting textures “on top” of each other at the same coordinates) . Floating point math is “fast” but not accurate. Why would anyone want that for audio (not trying to bash here, I’m genuinely puzzled and would love some knowledgeable insight)
  - adastra22 3y ago
    > MP3 is a lossy format so I would practically guarantee that you’d end up with a smaller file but that’s not the purpose of FLAC. Lossless encoding makes a file smaller than WAV while still being the same data. You misunderstood what you are replying to. FLAC works by running a lossy compression pass, and then LZ encoding the residual. The better the lossy pass, the less entropy in the residual and the smaller it compresses. FLAC’s lossy compressor pass was shit when it came out, and hasn’t gotten any better. Flickering textures is caused by truncation and wouldn’t be any better with integer math. The same issues apply (and are solved the same way, with explicit biases; flickering shouldn’t be a thing in any quality game engine). Floating point math is largely desired for mastering because compression (technical term overloaded meaning! Compression here means something totally different than above) results in samples having vastly different dynamic ranges. If rescaled onto the same basis, one would necessarily lose a lot of precision to truncation in intermediate calculations. Using floating point with sufficient precision makes this a non-concern.
    - shdh 3y ago
      > FLAC works by running a lossy compression pass, and then LZ encoding the residual. Since when does FLAC run a lossy pass? You can recover the original soundwave from a FLAC file, you can't do the same with an MP3. I'm pretty sure FLAC does not run a lossy compression pass. Flickering textures in game engines are likely due to z-fighting, unless you're referring to some other type of flickering. If you're looking to preserving as much detail as possible from your masters then floating points make sense. But its really overkill.
irh 3y ago
Support for >8 channels led me to use WavPack instead of FLAC.
- shdh 3y ago
  What's the use case?

adastra22 3y ago

FLAC’s compression algorithm was pretty much garbage when it came out, and is much worse now compared to the state of the art. Even mp3 + gzip residuals would probably compress better. FLAC doesn’t support more modern sampling formats (e.g. floating point for mastering), or complex multi channel compression for surround sound formats. There just isn’t something better (and free) to replace it yet.

CharlesW 3y ago
> There just isn’t something better (and free) to replace it yet. Apple's ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) format is an open-source and patent-free alternative. I believe both ALAC and FLAC support up to 8 channels of audio, which allows them to support 5.1 and 7.1 surround. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless_Audio_Codec#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless_Audio_Codec#His... These are distribution formats, so I'd be surprised if there were demand for floating-point audio support. And in contexts where floating point audio is used, audio size is not really a problem.
- adastra22 3y ago
  When FLAC compresses stereo audio, it does a diff of the left and right channels and compresses that. This often results in a 2x additional compression ratio because the left and right channels are tightly correlated. Unless things have changed substantially and I missed it, FLAC does not do similar tricks for other multichannel audio modes. Meaning that for surround sound, each channel is independently compressed and it is unable to exploit signal correlation between channels. Proprietary formats like Dolby on the other hand do support rather intelligent handling of multichannel modes. FLAC is not solely a distribution format. Indeed as a distribution format it sucks in a number of ways. It is chiefly used as an archival format, and would in fact be ideal as a mastering format if these deficiencies Could be addressed.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    In what ways does flac suck for distribution? All the music I download from Bandcamp is in that format, it works great for me.
    - adastra22 3y ago
      It could be much smaller, maybe 2-3x better compression. Better support for surround sound / multichannel audio. If an AAC stream were used for the lossy predictive stage, then existing hardware acceleration could be used for energy efficient playback.
      - crtasm 3y ago
        How would 2-3x better compression be achievable? I don't use or desire multichannel audio but that and the hardware acceleration are interesting points.
        adastra22 3y ago
        FLAC uses 1970’s era compression technology for both compression stages (lossy and residual) in order to conservatively avoid patents in the implementation. Just replace the lossy component with AAC, which is now out of patent protection, and replace Rice coding for the residual with the much better (but was still patented in the 90’s) arithmetic coding. Those two changes should get 2-4x performance improvement, as well as hardware accelerated encoding and playback as a free bonus. Multichannel audio support is nice because it is often used in distribution of media files sourced from DVD/BluRay. It would be good to have a high quality, free codec for that use.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        crtasm 3y ago
        Thanks. I would love to see a PoC of this making my music files that much smaller.
redeeman 3y ago
what do you suggest instead?
- adastra22 3y ago
  I suggest that people who care enough about these things (not me, I’m just informed about it), come together and make a new lossless encoder format that has feature parity with the proprietary/“professional” codecs.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    what codec are you suggesting is better, and how much better is it? unless encoders have wildly improved, alac's from apple is not better than flac. ape and wavpack seems to do a bit better, but not much
joshspankit 3y ago
> FLAC’s compression algorithm was pretty much garbage when it came out, and is much worse now compared to the state of the art. Even mp3 + gzip residuals would probably compress better. MP3 is a lossy format so I would practically guarantee that you’d end up with a smaller file but that’s not the purpose of FLAC. Lossless encoding makes a file smaller than WAV while still being the same data. > e.g. floating point for mastering I’m 0% sold on floating point for mastering. 32bit yes, but anyone who’s played a video game can tell you about those flickering textures and those are caused not by bad floating point calculations, but by good floating point calculations (the bad part is putting textures “on top” of each other at the same coordinates) . Floating point math is “fast” but not accurate. Why would anyone want that for audio (not trying to bash here, I’m genuinely puzzled and would love some knowledgeable insight)
- adastra22 3y ago
  > MP3 is a lossy format so I would practically guarantee that you’d end up with a smaller file but that’s not the purpose of FLAC. Lossless encoding makes a file smaller than WAV while still being the same data. You misunderstood what you are replying to. FLAC works by running a lossy compression pass, and then LZ encoding the residual. The better the lossy pass, the less entropy in the residual and the smaller it compresses. FLAC’s lossy compressor pass was shit when it came out, and hasn’t gotten any better. Flickering textures is caused by truncation and wouldn’t be any better with integer math. The same issues apply (and are solved the same way, with explicit biases; flickering shouldn’t be a thing in any quality game engine). Floating point math is largely desired for mastering because compression (technical term overloaded meaning! Compression here means something totally different than above) results in samples having vastly different dynamic ranges. If rescaled onto the same basis, one would necessarily lose a lot of precision to truncation in intermediate calculations. Using floating point with sufficient precision makes this a non-concern.
  - shdh 3y ago
    > FLAC works by running a lossy compression pass, and then LZ encoding the residual. Since when does FLAC run a lossy pass? You can recover the original soundwave from a FLAC file, you can't do the same with an MP3. I'm pretty sure FLAC does not run a lossy compression pass. Flickering textures in game engines are likely due to z-fighting, unless you're referring to some other type of flickering. If you're looking to preserving as much detail as possible from your masters then floating points make sense. But its really overkill.

irh 3y ago

Support for >8 channels led me to use WavPack instead of FLAC.

shdh 3y ago
What's the use case?