4 ms·

You wouldn't think much of my clothing. I've never owned a car. My grooming is minimal, my appearance just doesn't cross my mind. But I do like a nice cookie.

You wouldn't think much of my clothing. I've never owned a car. My grooming is minimal, my appearance just doesn't cross my mind. But I do like a nice cookie. I behave selfishly sometimes, no question. Does that really define the entirety of who I am? Why would it define me more than, say, when I feel bored, or when I behave generously, or when I do things on impulse? Afterall, I try to avoid behaving selfishly, so I spend a lot more time in these other frames of mind. Why shouldn't the totality be what defines me or anyone else? Flattening a human being into mere selfishness might be a convenient assumption to build models around, but the map is not the terrain.

panick21_ 3y ago
Lets break it down, how much of your income do you spend on yourself, your family, friends and community you live in, how much to benefit society as whole where you see almost no benefit what so ever? There is a reason economist use the term, self-interest, not selfishness. And it doesn't 'define you as a human' but it non the less true in the behavior patterns for 99.999999999% of humanity. You simply biologically have to look out for your own survival, and in the few cases you don't, its because you put family or sometimes community above your own interest. But that still is self-interested.
WalterBright 3y ago
> I try to avoid behaving selfishly Why?
- maxbond 3y ago
  My values include empathy, generosity, and kindness. Selfishness is most often incompatible with those values.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Does that mean you get good feelings from being unselfish?
    - maxbond 3y ago
      No, not really. Following my values usually feels neutral. Sometimes it feels absolutely terrible. What I'm trying to tell you is that this is an intrinsic goal, not an instrumental goal. If you were to ask me, "why do you have values?" or "why do you follow your values?" I wouldn't even know how to answer, it would be like asking a fish why it swims.
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        > No, not really. Then why do you do it? How would you feel if you did act selfishly?
        maxbond 3y ago
        I've already addressed this. Why does a fish swim? What would a fish do if it wasn't swimming? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_and_intrinsic_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_and_intrinsic_val... Alternatively; why do you do things you enjoy? Why do you do things that benefit you? Why does it matter to derive benefit? --- As far as I see it, the point of contention here is that you believe there exists only one intrinsic goal. I not only disagree but contend that I experience other intrinsic goals. At this point, I don't really see how one of us could convince the other. You don't believe my self-reported experience for one reason or another. I know I have other intrinsic goals, so your hypothesis is exploded from my perspective. I was trying to demonstrate that you don't have access to other people's experiences and can't really know what motivates them, but you seem unmoved. But if you have a different idea or line of argument I'm happy to entertain it.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        > Why does a fish swim? It will likely die if it does not. Animals' actions are an endless search for food and mates and stimulation. > you believe there exists only one intrinsic goal Only one? No. But it does underly our decisions and actions. > I was trying to demonstrate that you don't have access to other people's experiences and can't really know what motivates them, but you seem unmoved I'm unmoved because I see how selfishness destroys about every human initiative that relies on unselfish behavior. Frankly, I don't believe you do things from which you derive neither benefit nor satisfaction. Even people who self-harm derive a benefit from it.

panick21_ 3y ago

Lets break it down, how much of your income do you spend on yourself, your family, friends and community you live in, how much to benefit society as whole where you see almost no benefit what so ever? There is a reason economist use the term, self-interest, not selfishness. And it doesn't 'define you as a human' but it non the less true in the behavior patterns for 99.999999999% of humanity. You simply biologically have to look out for your own survival, and in the few cases you don't, its because you put family or sometimes community above your own interest. But that still is self-interested.

WalterBright 3y ago

> I try to avoid behaving selfishly Why?

maxbond 3y ago
My values include empathy, generosity, and kindness. Selfishness is most often incompatible with those values.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Does that mean you get good feelings from being unselfish?
  - maxbond 3y ago
    No, not really. Following my values usually feels neutral. Sometimes it feels absolutely terrible. What I'm trying to tell you is that this is an intrinsic goal, not an instrumental goal. If you were to ask me, "why do you have values?" or "why do you follow your values?" I wouldn't even know how to answer, it would be like asking a fish why it swims.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      > No, not really. Then why do you do it? How would you feel if you did act selfishly?
      - maxbond 3y ago
        I've already addressed this. Why does a fish swim? What would a fish do if it wasn't swimming? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_and_intrinsic_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_and_intrinsic_val... Alternatively; why do you do things you enjoy? Why do you do things that benefit you? Why does it matter to derive benefit? --- As far as I see it, the point of contention here is that you believe there exists only one intrinsic goal. I not only disagree but contend that I experience other intrinsic goals. At this point, I don't really see how one of us could convince the other. You don't believe my self-reported experience for one reason or another. I know I have other intrinsic goals, so your hypothesis is exploded from my perspective. I was trying to demonstrate that you don't have access to other people's experiences and can't really know what motivates them, but you seem unmoved. But if you have a different idea or line of argument I'm happy to entertain it.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        > Why does a fish swim? It will likely die if it does not. Animals' actions are an endless search for food and mates and stimulation. > you believe there exists only one intrinsic goal Only one? No. But it does underly our decisions and actions. > I was trying to demonstrate that you don't have access to other people's experiences and can't really know what motivates them, but you seem unmoved I'm unmoved because I see how selfishness destroys about every human initiative that relies on unselfish behavior. Frankly, I don't believe you do things from which you derive neither benefit nor satisfaction. Even people who self-harm derive a benefit from it.