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> Despite its name, the Great American Turn-On was invented in Canada. I wonder whether Canadians usually call themselves American, or whether this habit of US

by pyrale 3y ago

> Despite its name, the Great American Turn-On was invented in Canada. I wonder whether Canadians usually call themselves American, or whether this habit of USAns to monopolize the word influenced them into not using it.

gwd 3y ago
Here are the phases I went through as an American using "American": 1. Born in America; it's a big country, don't know much about the outside, just call it "America" and myself an "American". 2. Gain more knowledge of the outside world, realize the world and the Americas are even bigger. Start calling it "the States" or "the US" or things like that. 3. Gain even more experience of the outside world, realize that basically everyone in the world calls it "America" and calls us "Americans", and is confused by Americans who don't. Encounter forms written by foreign governments where "American" is the only option I can choose to describe my citizenship. Start calling it "America" again. Kind of like the "Jedi IQ Bell Curve" thing. FWIW I went through something similar with "Chinese", but then went out the other side: 1. Don't know anything about China, call the language that Chinese people speak "Chinese". 2. Start hearing about different "dialects" within China; start calling it "Mandarin". 3. Learn Mandarin, and start reading / talking with people from China. All the people I talk to in Mandarin say "Chinese" (中文) rather than "Mandarin" (汉语). So start just saying "Chinese" in both English and Mandarin. 4. Marry a native Cantonese speaker. Realize that the majority Mandarin-speaking Han population are engaging in cultural imperialism and suppression against minorities. Start saying "Mandarin" again in English, and 普通话 (putonghua / "common speech") in Mandarin / Cantonese.
- quesera 3y ago
  In my experience, working with people from Canada to Argentina, everyone has said that "America" in their common vernacular means the US of A, and "Americans" accordingly. But I wonder if this isn't just the US version of your Mandarin step 4. The US has dominated the global cultural conversation and the "other americans" have given up or never thought to challenge it. ... Distantly related: I have spoken to Mexicans who are annoyed that Americans frequently (wrongly) think that only Canada and the US are "North America".
  - gwd 3y ago
    > The US has dominated the global cultural conversation and the "other americans" have given up or never thought to challenge it. To be equivalent, it would have to be the US saying that Canadians and Mexicans were "really" just "states" of America (as Beijing insists that Cantonese is "really" just a "dialect" of Chinese) and intentionally attempting to marginalize Canadian / Mexican distinctives. I don't think I'd mind calling Mandarin "Chinese" if they didn't then insist that Cantonese is also "Chinese", use that to gaslight Cantonese speakers into thinking that their spoken language wasn't a real language, but "full of slang", and that their written language needed to be closer to Mandarin to be "correct Chinese".
    - quesera 3y ago
      Intent is different (and important), but I was wondering if the effect might be similar, regardless of intent.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    Do Americans frequently think that? That’s a surprise to me as everyone is taught in school that Mexico is part of North America and I’ve never met an American who thought otherwise
    - quesera 3y ago
      Apparently, frequently enough that the Mexicans I spoke to were aware of it and had thoughts on the matter. In general, they are very aware of the political currents in the US seeking to marginalize/disparage Mexico and Mexicans. And, we are taught a lot of things in school that are not retained. Some 50% of American high school graduates can't find Florida on a map.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - CoastalCoder 3y ago
      > Do Americans frequently think that? Not in my experience (lifelong American). I'm not aware of any project to make people think all of North and South America are, in fact, rightly part of the U.S.[1] The only slightly similar thing I can recall is an impression I formed in the 1980s: the global reach of Hollywood's TV and films gave non-American's a very skewed view of life in America. [1] other than America's Westward expansion, and as far south as the Rio Grande river. But IIUC those were militaristic expansions, not mere cultural imperialism.
- gruez 3y ago
  >Realize that the majority Mandarin-speaking Han population are engaging in cultural imperialism and suppression against minorities. The CCP might be "engaging in cultural imperialism and suppression against minorities", but it's a stretch to claim "most" of the population is, when they have little political power and are just trying to survive.
  - gwd 3y ago
    Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear -- I don't fault most of the population.
- kkielhofner 3y ago
  I think this boils down to "The United States of America" being the only country with America in the actual country name. Plus the overall influence of the USA, etc. America, of course, can also refer to two entire continents but I don't know that I've ever met anyone who's primary identity refers to their continent. It would be very odd to me, at least, for an Argentinian (as one example) to refer to themselves as American. Same for someone from Thailand referring to themselves as Asian or someone from Nigeria saying African unless (of course) they were attempting to communicate with someone with very limited geographic knowledge (mostly Americans). I have many friends from Central and South America and prior to meeting them I would have dismissed something like the Narcissism of Small Differences[0]. Spend some time hanging out with Colombians, Venezuelans, Argentinians, Chileans, Uruguayans, Nicaraguans, etc in a tapestry like Miami and you learn quickly it is a very real thing - going back and forth about things like how to prepare and cook beans. At first it's very interesting to experience them (mostly playfully) poking at each other over things that most of the world doesn't notice and can't understand. However, if you know them well and they've been in the US a while when you describe the Narcissism of Small Differences they usually say something like "That's so true! I never knew it had an actual name". When they visit the small town I'm from in Wisconsin I have to tell them that to most of the locals they're "Mexican" and to try not to get offended even though there actually are significant differences between Mexico and South America countries. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...
  - amalcon 3y ago
    > America, of course, can also refer to two entire continents but I don't know that I've ever met anyone who's primary identity refers to their continent. It can be hard to tell with Australians for obvious reasons, but I think some do hold such an identity there.
- amalcon 3y ago
  It's interesting -- I was actually taught in Spanish class to call my nationality "estatounidense". Which I now understand is more polite in a few places, but will confuse everyone in other places. The most notable of the latter is, of course, Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos.
- aragonite 3y ago
  1. The majority of Cantonese speakers belong to the Han ethnic group. 2. "Mandarin" is not synonymous with "汉语." Standard Mandarin (普通话/现代标准汉语/國語 in Taiwan) and Standard Cantonese (粤语/广东话) represent two main varieties of the Chinese language, or "汉语". [1] 3. It's unsurprising that the Mandarin speakers you spoke with refer to their language as "Chinese", considering they were addressing a foreigner and Standard Mandarin is the official language of China. However, in interactions between Mandarin and Cantonese speakers, it's common to ask, "Do you speak Cantonese/Mandarin?" [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language
PhasmaFelis 3y ago
Canadians aren't American. They are North American. America is a part of North America, which is a part of the Americas. It's a little confusing if you're not used to it, but no one is monopolizing anything.
- lallysingh 3y ago
  North is a qualifier of American - denoting a subset of America. "American" is used by citizens of the USA only because the country's name doesn't give a better moniker. If the USA wasn't rich or powerful, "American" would mean the same as "Asian" or "European."
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - PhasmaFelis 3y ago
    > North is a qualifier of American - denoting a subset of America. That would make sense, but language unfortunately isn't obligated to make sense. In English, "America" unequivocally means the USA. "North America" unequivocally means the continent, and "the Americas" means both continents. This is only a problem because of clashing language and geography standards--in some languages there's only one continent and it's called "America," so it's easy to have misunderstandings between Spanish and English speakers using the same word to mean different things. But neither one is wrong. They're just speaking different languages. (Neither is wrong about the definitions of the continents, either. Continents are arbitrary and always have been.)
    - pyrale 3y ago
      > That would make sense, but language unfortunately isn't obligated to make sense. I do agree with that, but for a language such as English, spoken all around the world, no one country or group of people gets to decide the meaning of words. Insisting other people use your definition that you admitted doesn't make sense and making snarky comments like the article author did when they don't comply sounds pretty childish. > In English, "America" unequivocally means the USA. That is an extreme claim. As a contextual example, the gadget creators were apparently fine calling their gadget American.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Let me introduce you to the concept of Synecdoche, aka part for the whole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche
LegitShady 3y ago
>I wonder whether Canadians usually call themselves American definitely don't. smart enough to keep it all straight in our heads - we know what continent we're on without constantly naming ourselves after it, and trying to claim the word would just leave to confusion. "Oh you're American? Strange accent, where are you from?" "Cape Shore!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banAMiFK3ak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banAMiFK3ak

by pyrale 3y ago

gwd 3y ago

Here are the phases I went through as an American using "American": 1. Born in America; it's a big country, don't know much about the outside, just call it "America" and myself an "American". 2. Gain more knowledge of the outside world, realize the world and the Americas are even bigger. Start calling it "the States" or "the US" or things like that. 3. Gain even more experience of the outside world, realize that basically everyone in the world calls it "America" and calls us "Americans", and is confused by Americans who don't. Encounter forms written by foreign governments where "American" is the only option I can choose to describe my citizenship. Start calling it "America" again. Kind of like the "Jedi IQ Bell Curve" thing. FWIW I went through something similar with "Chinese", but then went out the other side: 1. Don't know anything about China, call the language that Chinese people speak "Chinese". 2. Start hearing about different "dialects" within China; start calling it "Mandarin". 3. Learn Mandarin, and start reading / talking with people from China. All the people I talk to in Mandarin say "Chinese" (中文) rather than "Mandarin" (汉语). So start just saying "Chinese" in both English and Mandarin. 4. Marry a native Cantonese speaker. Realize that the majority Mandarin-speaking Han population are engaging in cultural imperialism and suppression against minorities. Start saying "Mandarin" again in English, and 普通话 (putonghua / "common speech") in Mandarin / Cantonese.

quesera 3y ago
In my experience, working with people from Canada to Argentina, everyone has said that "America" in their common vernacular means the US of A, and "Americans" accordingly. But I wonder if this isn't just the US version of your Mandarin step 4. The US has dominated the global cultural conversation and the "other americans" have given up or never thought to challenge it. ... Distantly related: I have spoken to Mexicans who are annoyed that Americans frequently (wrongly) think that only Canada and the US are "North America".
- gwd 3y ago
  > The US has dominated the global cultural conversation and the "other americans" have given up or never thought to challenge it. To be equivalent, it would have to be the US saying that Canadians and Mexicans were "really" just "states" of America (as Beijing insists that Cantonese is "really" just a "dialect" of Chinese) and intentionally attempting to marginalize Canadian / Mexican distinctives. I don't think I'd mind calling Mandarin "Chinese" if they didn't then insist that Cantonese is also "Chinese", use that to gaslight Cantonese speakers into thinking that their spoken language wasn't a real language, but "full of slang", and that their written language needed to be closer to Mandarin to be "correct Chinese".
  - quesera 3y ago
    Intent is different (and important), but I was wondering if the effect might be similar, regardless of intent.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Do Americans frequently think that? That’s a surprise to me as everyone is taught in school that Mexico is part of North America and I’ve never met an American who thought otherwise
  - quesera 3y ago
    Apparently, frequently enough that the Mexicans I spoke to were aware of it and had thoughts on the matter. In general, they are very aware of the political currents in the US seeking to marginalize/disparage Mexico and Mexicans. And, we are taught a lot of things in school that are not retained. Some 50% of American high school graduates can't find Florida on a map.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    > Do Americans frequently think that? Not in my experience (lifelong American). I'm not aware of any project to make people think all of North and South America are, in fact, rightly part of the U.S.[1] The only slightly similar thing I can recall is an impression I formed in the 1980s: the global reach of Hollywood's TV and films gave non-American's a very skewed view of life in America. [1] other than America's Westward expansion, and as far south as the Rio Grande river. But IIUC those were militaristic expansions, not mere cultural imperialism.
gruez 3y ago
>Realize that the majority Mandarin-speaking Han population are engaging in cultural imperialism and suppression against minorities. The CCP might be "engaging in cultural imperialism and suppression against minorities", but it's a stretch to claim "most" of the population is, when they have little political power and are just trying to survive.
- gwd 3y ago
  Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear -- I don't fault most of the population.
kkielhofner 3y ago
I think this boils down to "The United States of America" being the only country with America in the actual country name. Plus the overall influence of the USA, etc. America, of course, can also refer to two entire continents but I don't know that I've ever met anyone who's primary identity refers to their continent. It would be very odd to me, at least, for an Argentinian (as one example) to refer to themselves as American. Same for someone from Thailand referring to themselves as Asian or someone from Nigeria saying African unless (of course) they were attempting to communicate with someone with very limited geographic knowledge (mostly Americans). I have many friends from Central and South America and prior to meeting them I would have dismissed something like the Narcissism of Small Differences[0]. Spend some time hanging out with Colombians, Venezuelans, Argentinians, Chileans, Uruguayans, Nicaraguans, etc in a tapestry like Miami and you learn quickly it is a very real thing - going back and forth about things like how to prepare and cook beans. At first it's very interesting to experience them (mostly playfully) poking at each other over things that most of the world doesn't notice and can't understand. However, if you know them well and they've been in the US a while when you describe the Narcissism of Small Differences they usually say something like "That's so true! I never knew it had an actual name". When they visit the small town I'm from in Wisconsin I have to tell them that to most of the locals they're "Mexican" and to try not to get offended even though there actually are significant differences between Mexico and South America countries. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...
- amalcon 3y ago
  > America, of course, can also refer to two entire continents but I don't know that I've ever met anyone who's primary identity refers to their continent. It can be hard to tell with Australians for obvious reasons, but I think some do hold such an identity there.
amalcon 3y ago
It's interesting -- I was actually taught in Spanish class to call my nationality "estatounidense". Which I now understand is more polite in a few places, but will confuse everyone in other places. The most notable of the latter is, of course, Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos.
aragonite 3y ago
1. The majority of Cantonese speakers belong to the Han ethnic group. 2. "Mandarin" is not synonymous with "汉语." Standard Mandarin (普通话/现代标准汉语/國語 in Taiwan) and Standard Cantonese (粤语/广东话) represent two main varieties of the Chinese language, or "汉语". [1] 3. It's unsurprising that the Mandarin speakers you spoke with refer to their language as "Chinese", considering they were addressing a foreigner and Standard Mandarin is the official language of China. However, in interactions between Mandarin and Cantonese speakers, it's common to ask, "Do you speak Cantonese/Mandarin?" [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language

PhasmaFelis 3y ago

Canadians aren't American. They are North American. America is a part of North America, which is a part of the Americas. It's a little confusing if you're not used to it, but no one is monopolizing anything.

lallysingh 3y ago
North is a qualifier of American - denoting a subset of America. "American" is used by citizens of the USA only because the country's name doesn't give a better moniker. If the USA wasn't rich or powerful, "American" would mean the same as "Asian" or "European."
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- PhasmaFelis 3y ago
  > North is a qualifier of American - denoting a subset of America. That would make sense, but language unfortunately isn't obligated to make sense. In English, "America" unequivocally means the USA. "North America" unequivocally means the continent, and "the Americas" means both continents. This is only a problem because of clashing language and geography standards--in some languages there's only one continent and it's called "America," so it's easy to have misunderstandings between Spanish and English speakers using the same word to mean different things. But neither one is wrong. They're just speaking different languages. (Neither is wrong about the definitions of the continents, either. Continents are arbitrary and always have been.)
  - pyrale 3y ago
    > That would make sense, but language unfortunately isn't obligated to make sense. I do agree with that, but for a language such as English, spoken all around the world, no one country or group of people gets to decide the meaning of words. Insisting other people use your definition that you admitted doesn't make sense and making snarky comments like the article author did when they don't comply sounds pretty childish. > In English, "America" unequivocally means the USA. That is an extreme claim. As a contextual example, the gadget creators were apparently fine calling their gadget American.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mixmastamyk 3y ago

Let me introduce you to the concept of Synecdoche, aka part for the whole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche

LegitShady 3y ago

>I wonder whether Canadians usually call themselves American definitely don't. smart enough to keep it all straight in our heads - we know what continent we're on without constantly naming ourselves after it, and trying to claim the word would just leave to confusion. "Oh you're American? Strange accent, where are you from?" "Cape Shore!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banAMiFK3ak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banAMiFK3ak