5 ms·

By what means have you seen into this other commenter's heart to determine they are fundamentally selfish?

WalterBright 3y ago
All people are selfish. People who give to others derive pleasure from it, and they like that pleasure. Not enough to base an economy on it, though. People soon get tired of working hard only to give the results to loafers.
- maxbond 3y ago
  I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question, but instead repeated your original assertion. Let's say I declare that your observation is not true of me personally. Note that this doesn't necessitate any evidence external to me; I could introspect and discover this about myself, however you don't have the ability to "introspect" into my own mind. How could you prove to me I'm mistaken? And please note, I am not looking for a restatement here, I understand what your view is.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    > How could you prove to me I'm mistaken? By having a conversation with you. I'd point out your pride and self-satisfaction at being unselfish. If I knew of you more than that, I'd point out your selfish behavior. It's not hard, look at the clothes you wear, the car you drive, the cookie you ate, your grooming, and so on.
    - maxbond 3y ago
      You wouldn't think much of my clothing. I've never owned a car. My grooming is minimal, my appearance just doesn't cross my mind. But I do like a nice cookie. I behave selfishly sometimes, no question. Does that really define the entirety of who I am? Why would it define me more than, say, when I feel bored, or when I behave generously, or when I do things on impulse? Afterall, I try to avoid behaving selfishly, so I spend a lot more time in these other frames of mind. Why shouldn't the totality be what defines me or anyone else? Flattening a human being into mere selfishness might be a convenient assumption to build models around, but the map is not the terrain.
      - panick21_ 3y ago
        Lets break it down, how much of your income do you spend on yourself, your family, friends and community you live in, how much to benefit society as whole where you see almost no benefit what so ever? There is a reason economist use the term, self-interest, not selfishness. And it doesn't 'define you as a human' but it non the less true in the behavior patterns for 99.999999999% of humanity. You simply biologically have to look out for your own survival, and in the few cases you don't, its because you put family or sometimes community above your own interest. But that still is self-interested.
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        > I try to avoid behaving selfishly Why?
        maxbond 3y ago
        My values include empathy, generosity, and kindness. Selfishness is most often incompatible with those values.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        Does that mean you get good feelings from being unselfish?
        maxbond 3y ago
        No, not really. Following my values usually feels neutral. Sometimes it feels absolutely terrible. What I'm trying to tell you is that this is an intrinsic goal, not an instrumental goal. If you were to ask me, "why do you have values?" or "why do you follow your values?" I wouldn't even know how to answer, it would be like asking a fish why it swims.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        > No, not really. Then why do you do it? How would you feel if you did act selfishly?

All people are selfish. People who give to others derive pleasure from it, and they like that pleasure. Not enough to base an economy on it, though. People soon get tired of working hard only to give the results to loafers.

maxbond 3y ago
I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question, but instead repeated your original assertion. Let's say I declare that your observation is not true of me personally. Note that this doesn't necessitate any evidence external to me; I could introspect and discover this about myself, however you don't have the ability to "introspect" into my own mind. How could you prove to me I'm mistaken? And please note, I am not looking for a restatement here, I understand what your view is.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > How could you prove to me I'm mistaken? By having a conversation with you. I'd point out your pride and self-satisfaction at being unselfish. If I knew of you more than that, I'd point out your selfish behavior. It's not hard, look at the clothes you wear, the car you drive, the cookie you ate, your grooming, and so on.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    You wouldn't think much of my clothing. I've never owned a car. My grooming is minimal, my appearance just doesn't cross my mind. But I do like a nice cookie. I behave selfishly sometimes, no question. Does that really define the entirety of who I am? Why would it define me more than, say, when I feel bored, or when I behave generously, or when I do things on impulse? Afterall, I try to avoid behaving selfishly, so I spend a lot more time in these other frames of mind. Why shouldn't the totality be what defines me or anyone else? Flattening a human being into mere selfishness might be a convenient assumption to build models around, but the map is not the terrain.
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      Lets break it down, how much of your income do you spend on yourself, your family, friends and community you live in, how much to benefit society as whole where you see almost no benefit what so ever? There is a reason economist use the term, self-interest, not selfishness. And it doesn't 'define you as a human' but it non the less true in the behavior patterns for 99.999999999% of humanity. You simply biologically have to look out for your own survival, and in the few cases you don't, its because you put family or sometimes community above your own interest. But that still is self-interested.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      > I try to avoid behaving selfishly Why?
      - maxbond 3y ago
        My values include empathy, generosity, and kindness. Selfishness is most often incompatible with those values.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        Does that mean you get good feelings from being unselfish?
        maxbond 3y ago
        No, not really. Following my values usually feels neutral. Sometimes it feels absolutely terrible. What I'm trying to tell you is that this is an intrinsic goal, not an instrumental goal. If you were to ask me, "why do you have values?" or "why do you follow your values?" I wouldn't even know how to answer, it would be like asking a fish why it swims.
        WalterBright 3y ago
        > No, not really. Then why do you do it? How would you feel if you did act selfishly?