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(Wu-Tang’s C.R.E.A.M. playing in the background) “Spotify will have the means to absorb this tax, but Spotify will disinvest in France and will invest in other

by dpflan 3y ago

(Wu-Tang’s C.R.E.A.M. playing in the background) “Spotify will have the means to absorb this tax, but Spotify will disinvest in France and will invest in other markets,” Monin said in an interview with FranceInfo last week. “France does not encourage innovation and investment.” What will the CNM (Centre National de la Musique) do? Could it be encouraging “innovation and investment” in France? While Spotify loses some profit and share price, but then may have to innovate and invest in this new business environment.

timeagain 3y ago
“ France does not encourage innovation and investment”… in foreign media companies. They’re using the tax to fund local investment in music.
- indigo0086 3y ago
  Repeat this until you understand how funny it sounds
- gwervc 3y ago
  No, in general. It's a tax hell, the state is capturing about 43.5% of GDP for very questionable results on every plan (security, education, health, etc.) The money will be diverted to friends of friends that don't need it in the first place. Source: myself, looking at starting a company there.
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    Every time you figure out an obstacle - an obscure regulation that affects you and how to beat it, which bureaucrat can assist you in these matters, which politician you can affiliate with to make red tape get cut - you are also creating a moat. Even better, if you get competitors, you can speak to your government contacts and get your competitor mired in the same red tape. While you personally may be able to overcome this, the net result across the macro economy is one of stagnation and slow growth. It does not encourage innovation. Such is the situation in France.
  - gottorf 3y ago
    And France has the highest government expenditure as a percent of GDP among the developed world, at >58% as of last count[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen...
  - margorczynski 3y ago
    This is more or less true for whole of Europe. A look at historical GDP growth gives a big hint - around before 2010 the EU and USA were on par, after that while the US grew and innovated Europe has chosen bureaucracy, taxation and fighting with business aside from the state owned ones.
    - justinclift 3y ago
      Interestingly, some of those moves by the EU (like the GDPR) are widely popular with citizens around the world, to the point where some US jurisdictions have been working on their own copies. So perhaps there is worthwhile innovation happening in the EU after all?
      - moate 3y ago
        “Innovation” is tech-man speak for “figuring out how to privatize/shift profits to our company” in the press. Sort of like how “the economy” can usually just be translated to mean “rich people’s yacht money”
        gottorf 3y ago
        > “the economy” can usually just be translated to mean “rich people’s yacht money” Mississippi, one of the poorest US states and one widely panned for having "backwards" economic policies (meaning low levels of redistributive taxation), has a higher median household income at nearly $53k[0] than Germany, the country with the best economy in egalitarian Europe, at roughly $46k[1]. So it's definitely not just yacht-owners that are the beneficiaries of economic growth in a laissez-faire capitalistic country. [0]: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 [1]: https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/salaries-in-germany https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/salaries-in-germany
        moate 3y ago
        SO sorry that it took me so long to respond to this, but your math felt wrong, so I looked into it. [1]Mississippi PER CAPITA income: 29K [2]Worst German State PER CAPITA income: 34K I have no idea what All About Berln is, and when I looked into their dataset it was...confusing. So I went to Wikipedia. I think you were comparing Household vs Per capita? Either way, Mississippi isn't the doing as well you're claiming. They also have a 19% poverty rate [1] compared to Germany's 11% [3]. [1]https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_p... [3]https://www.statista.com/topics/10455/poverty-in-germany https://www.statista.com/topics/10455/poverty-in-germany
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Better than going to your existing Big Tech management and shareholders. France is supporting "Buy Local" at nation state scale. When the US "grows and innovates," it's mostly extraction at scale for shareholder benefit. Railroads (precision scheduling), healthcare, finance (credit card rails 3% economy rake, financialization of all the things), shareholder investor owned utilities, tax prep, etc. It's always nice to see a country push back on the tech/intellectual property equivalent of the East India Company concept. Colonialism and empire building isn't dead, it simply expresses itself as multinationals on top of capital markets in the current incarnation. Don't invite the vampire in. When someone says "GDP" or "growth," politely ask them to show whom is benefiting (and to what degree) from numbers championed from a spreadsheet. (i am sympathetic to the plight of your run of the mill, well intentioned startup founder focused on problem solving, but also not blind to the bulldozers I mention above)
    - ethagknight 3y ago
      Are you serious? Better going to a government with no added value vs a company providing a service for a monthly fee?
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Very serious. It is an opinion that it is no added value. Show me evidence that the French government is providing a lower quality of life than say, the US government. GDP and growth are poor measures of quality of life. Certainly, you are free to not participate in the market if you choose not to as a business owner or service provider. It is very likely nothing of value will be lost. Spotify's CEO is worth ~$3B while artists make pennies. Why would you incentivize such a structure unless your mental model tilts towards that being acceptable? I'm not saying this should be free or a utility, but it should probably be a business of a couple hundred people with a reasonable valuation target. As a nation state, you can say no. Europe does this, China does this. It can be done. "I would like to submit a bug report." The only people wringing their hands are those who would profit from the VC/tech fuckery ecosystem extending its reach. Don't let them; cut them tentacles seeking a moat/regulatory capture/entrenchment right off. We can do better, and I feel no shame in stating such a position. https://www.google.com/search?q=quality+of+life+france+vs+us https://www.google.com/search?q=quality+of+life+france+vs+us https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/11/france.quality.life/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/11/france.quality.l... https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/france/living-in-france/ https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/franc... https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/france/ https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/france/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/should-we-try-to-live-like-the-french/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/should-we-try-to-live-lik...
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  (1) The music industry? (2) Working musicians who make contemporary music people want to listen to? (3) Paying to maintain a big classical music hall that people think other people should listen to? (4) (3) only if they play Debussy instead of Bach?
mc32 3y ago
What’s deezer’s standing in all this?
- LordShredda 3y ago
  They fill in the gap spotify will leave. The french win anyways
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    The CEO of Deezer does not seem to count the tax as a win. > Deezer CEO Jeronimo Folgueira called the tax “the worst possible outcome of all the different scenarios” the company faced from the French government. “Adding taxes is the worst way of trying to support the industry,” he told Billboard. https://www.billboard.com/pro/deezer-stock-down-france-tax-siriusxm-shares-up-lawsuit/ https://www.billboard.com/pro/deezer-stock-down-france-tax-s...
    - ixaxaar 3y ago
      isn't this similar to what Canada was/is trying to do to podcasts?
adestefan 3y ago
I'm also unsure of any innovation Spotify has made in the world of music. Some searching has led me to the end of year recaps and a lot about advertising. Guess France will miss out.
- dawatchusay 3y ago
  From my perspective they made streaming a vast catalogue of music legally a business. I’ve been a user for a long time and been able to discover a lot on their platform although I must admit quality of recommendations seems to be falling lately. Last.fm was great at that
- AmericanChopper 3y ago
  It’s amazing that somebody could say this with a straight face. Spotify are so successfully innovative that they basically ended music piracy.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    I thought that was apple and pandora?
    - AmericanChopper 3y ago
      Pandora was an alternative to radio, not to pirating music, and Apple probably contributed more to music piracy than any other company. Nobody was filling their iPods to the brim with $0.99 songs, they were filling them up with pirated songs that they imported into iTunes.
  - ahartmetz 3y ago
    If only the UX wasn't god awful shitgarbage. It manages to be underfeatured and obscure and just plain annoying (can I please see all music by the artist?) at the same time. A friend told me that UX designers he used to work with used to mock Spotify and took it as an example for how not to do things. A private collection and a player like Clementine is so much nicer. It's not like Spotify has everything, anyway. Not even original versions of songs if anyone released an arbitrarily bad remaster.

by dpflan 3y ago

timeagain 3y ago

“ France does not encourage innovation and investment”… in foreign media companies. They’re using the tax to fund local investment in music.

indigo0086 3y ago
Repeat this until you understand how funny it sounds
gwervc 3y ago
No, in general. It's a tax hell, the state is capturing about 43.5% of GDP for very questionable results on every plan (security, education, health, etc.) The money will be diverted to friends of friends that don't need it in the first place. Source: myself, looking at starting a company there.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  Every time you figure out an obstacle - an obscure regulation that affects you and how to beat it, which bureaucrat can assist you in these matters, which politician you can affiliate with to make red tape get cut - you are also creating a moat. Even better, if you get competitors, you can speak to your government contacts and get your competitor mired in the same red tape. While you personally may be able to overcome this, the net result across the macro economy is one of stagnation and slow growth. It does not encourage innovation. Such is the situation in France.
- gottorf 3y ago
  And France has the highest government expenditure as a percent of GDP among the developed world, at >58% as of last count[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen...
- margorczynski 3y ago
  This is more or less true for whole of Europe. A look at historical GDP growth gives a big hint - around before 2010 the EU and USA were on par, after that while the US grew and innovated Europe has chosen bureaucracy, taxation and fighting with business aside from the state owned ones.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Interestingly, some of those moves by the EU (like the GDPR) are widely popular with citizens around the world, to the point where some US jurisdictions have been working on their own copies. So perhaps there is worthwhile innovation happening in the EU after all?
    - moate 3y ago
      “Innovation” is tech-man speak for “figuring out how to privatize/shift profits to our company” in the press. Sort of like how “the economy” can usually just be translated to mean “rich people’s yacht money”
      - gottorf 3y ago
        > “the economy” can usually just be translated to mean “rich people’s yacht money” Mississippi, one of the poorest US states and one widely panned for having "backwards" economic policies (meaning low levels of redistributive taxation), has a higher median household income at nearly $53k[0] than Germany, the country with the best economy in egalitarian Europe, at roughly $46k[1]. So it's definitely not just yacht-owners that are the beneficiaries of economic growth in a laissez-faire capitalistic country. [0]: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 [1]: https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/salaries-in-germany https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/salaries-in-germany
        moate 3y ago
        SO sorry that it took me so long to respond to this, but your math felt wrong, so I looked into it. [1]Mississippi PER CAPITA income: 29K [2]Worst German State PER CAPITA income: 34K I have no idea what All About Berln is, and when I looked into their dataset it was...confusing. So I went to Wikipedia. I think you were comparing Household vs Per capita? Either way, Mississippi isn't the doing as well you're claiming. They also have a 19% poverty rate [1] compared to Germany's 11% [3]. [1]https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MS/BZA115221 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_p... [3]https://www.statista.com/topics/10455/poverty-in-germany https://www.statista.com/topics/10455/poverty-in-germany
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Better than going to your existing Big Tech management and shareholders. France is supporting "Buy Local" at nation state scale. When the US "grows and innovates," it's mostly extraction at scale for shareholder benefit. Railroads (precision scheduling), healthcare, finance (credit card rails 3% economy rake, financialization of all the things), shareholder investor owned utilities, tax prep, etc. It's always nice to see a country push back on the tech/intellectual property equivalent of the East India Company concept. Colonialism and empire building isn't dead, it simply expresses itself as multinationals on top of capital markets in the current incarnation. Don't invite the vampire in. When someone says "GDP" or "growth," politely ask them to show whom is benefiting (and to what degree) from numbers championed from a spreadsheet. (i am sympathetic to the plight of your run of the mill, well intentioned startup founder focused on problem solving, but also not blind to the bulldozers I mention above)
  - ethagknight 3y ago
    Are you serious? Better going to a government with no added value vs a company providing a service for a monthly fee?
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Very serious. It is an opinion that it is no added value. Show me evidence that the French government is providing a lower quality of life than say, the US government. GDP and growth are poor measures of quality of life. Certainly, you are free to not participate in the market if you choose not to as a business owner or service provider. It is very likely nothing of value will be lost. Spotify's CEO is worth ~$3B while artists make pennies. Why would you incentivize such a structure unless your mental model tilts towards that being acceptable? I'm not saying this should be free or a utility, but it should probably be a business of a couple hundred people with a reasonable valuation target. As a nation state, you can say no. Europe does this, China does this. It can be done. "I would like to submit a bug report." The only people wringing their hands are those who would profit from the VC/tech fuckery ecosystem extending its reach. Don't let them; cut them tentacles seeking a moat/regulatory capture/entrenchment right off. We can do better, and I feel no shame in stating such a position. https://www.google.com/search?q=quality+of+life+france+vs+us https://www.google.com/search?q=quality+of+life+france+vs+us https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/11/france.quality.life/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/11/france.quality.l... https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/france/living-in-france/ https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/franc... https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/france/ https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/france/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/should-we-try-to-live-like-the-french/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/should-we-try-to-live-lik...
PaulHoule 3y ago
(1) The music industry? (2) Working musicians who make contemporary music people want to listen to? (3) Paying to maintain a big classical music hall that people think other people should listen to? (4) (3) only if they play Debussy instead of Bach?

mc32 3y ago

What’s deezer’s standing in all this?

LordShredda 3y ago
They fill in the gap spotify will leave. The french win anyways
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  The CEO of Deezer does not seem to count the tax as a win. > Deezer CEO Jeronimo Folgueira called the tax “the worst possible outcome of all the different scenarios” the company faced from the French government. “Adding taxes is the worst way of trying to support the industry,” he told Billboard. https://www.billboard.com/pro/deezer-stock-down-france-tax-siriusxm-shares-up-lawsuit/ https://www.billboard.com/pro/deezer-stock-down-france-tax-s...
  - ixaxaar 3y ago
    isn't this similar to what Canada was/is trying to do to podcasts?

adestefan 3y ago

I'm also unsure of any innovation Spotify has made in the world of music. Some searching has led me to the end of year recaps and a lot about advertising. Guess France will miss out.

dawatchusay 3y ago
From my perspective they made streaming a vast catalogue of music legally a business. I’ve been a user for a long time and been able to discover a lot on their platform although I must admit quality of recommendations seems to be falling lately. Last.fm was great at that
AmericanChopper 3y ago
It’s amazing that somebody could say this with a straight face. Spotify are so successfully innovative that they basically ended music piracy.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  I thought that was apple and pandora?
  - AmericanChopper 3y ago
    Pandora was an alternative to radio, not to pirating music, and Apple probably contributed more to music piracy than any other company. Nobody was filling their iPods to the brim with $0.99 songs, they were filling them up with pirated songs that they imported into iTunes.
- ahartmetz 3y ago
  If only the UX wasn't god awful shitgarbage. It manages to be underfeatured and obscure and just plain annoying (can I please see all music by the artist?) at the same time. A friend told me that UX designers he used to work with used to mock Spotify and took it as an example for how not to do things. A private collection and a player like Clementine is so much nicer. It's not like Spotify has everything, anyway. Not even original versions of songs if anyone released an arbitrarily bad remaster.