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"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

1041 points by kilian 15y ago

frederico 15y ago
outstanding article; things ring so so true. Highschool is such a rough time with getting people singled out, and it's hard for those who are individuals. Kudos to this guy for an outstanding talk to this kid; inspires hopefully many of us to share our experiences and reach out to younger kids we see.
anotherthrow 15y ago
The sentiment of the article is great, but a lot of it just doesn't quite ring true. When the auther starts going on about other people being losers, and him being a winner, because they do things he doesn't personally value, you start to wonder if he is really free from defining himself in contrast to the guys who excluded him years ago. Life isn't a competition like that. There's a classic transformation you see a lot of high-functioning geeks go through when they leave school, and start earning more money, living more cosmopolitan lifestyles and meeting more interesting people than those they left behind - they flip around and start juding their ex-classmates negatively in just the way their classmates judged them. You see it a lot on places like reddit, and I think it comes through a little in this article.
- unalone 15y ago
  It might come through a little, but there's a difference between comparing yourself perpetually to the people who used to torture you, and feeling sympathetic to a 14-year-old kid who's being tortured now because you remember what it was like to be his age. It's not too bad to remember that things used to suck, and that they're better now. Plus, I don't know a thing about this guy, but he sounds like like a cool dude from this blog post.
  - anotherthrow 15y ago
    I know, but on a (probably unfairly) uncharitable reading his advice is 'don't worry, that girl who didn't want to kiss you is a loser, and so are the people who don't want to hang out with you'. It might be comforting, but I don't think it's healthy or true attitude to take.
- DanielStraight 15y ago
  This is basically what I wanted to point out. And please understand I intend this to build up the community, not to tear down the author of the post. "It's not me that's weird, it's them" is the wrong path to self-esteem. Really, it's a form of retaliation, and it's dangerous. If you categorize people who aren't like you as "weird" and write them off, then you are acting the same as those who are bullying you. The solution to bullying cannot be bullying the bullies. I understand that when the author says, "There's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with them," his emphasis is on the first part. But the second part isn't necessary at all. And in fact, it's a dangerous attitude to have. "Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
losethos 15y ago
Cain and Abel
tseabrooks 15y ago
You can have all of the upvotes they'll let me give you. It's amazing being "all grown up" and looking out and realizing that highschool and all of the shit that happens while growing up has almost no connection to the real world.
- ZanderEarth32 15y ago
  Isn't the 'real world' relative? To a kid in high school, that is the real world. To a grown man among his peers at work, that is the real world. I never understood telling kids that high school wasn't the real world. I can understand telling them it gets better (and it does, I know) but to try to mask certain stages of their lives as not real doesn't seem genuine.
  - AerieC 15y ago
    Maybe "the real world" isn't the right term, but high school certainly is an isolated, controlled, and artificial environment compared to the rest of the outside world. The kids are locked down and have little to no freedom and little to no control over their environment. Also, some things that are socially acceptable in high school are NOT socially acceptable in an adult workplace. In that sense, high school is not "the real world", because high school students don't have the same freedom or the same tools to deal with obnoxious people as they otherwise would in the adult world. In "the real world", you have legal recourse if someone in your workplace is harassing you. You can get a restraining order. You can talk to your H.R. department. You can sue your workplace and/or the person if you've taken the above steps and nothing has been done. You can quit your job and get a new one. In high school you have none of those luxuries. Unless the harassment is extreme, there is very little likelihood of getting a restraining order against another student. Furthermore, getting a restraining order is not something a high schooler can do on their own (they would need help from their parents). You can talk to the administration at the school, but they don't have the same power, nor the same incentive to avoid lawsuits (although this is changing) as a company's H.R. department. Also, many school administrators are still of the mindset that "kids will be kids" when it comes to bullying/harassment, and are unwilling to do anything about the issue. Finally, a high schooler cannot simply quit high school like an adult can quit his or her job. Again, it involves their parents's help. That is the difference between high school and "the real world". In the real world, harassment is a serious legal issue; in high school, it's just "kids will be kids". In the real world, you have at least a modicum of control over your environment; in high school, kids have no control. In the real world, actions have consequences; in high school, apparently, they do not.
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einarlove 15y ago
By motivating the boy, I believe it could only strengthen his own motivation. Keep it up.
chriseidhof 15y ago
Slightly off-topic, but still relevant: a great quote from Alain de Botton: "Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them." https://twitter.com/#!/alaindebotton/status/192491443884011520 https://twitter.com/#!/alaindebotton/status/1924914438840115...
- RollAHardSix 15y ago
  That is now one of my favorite quotes of all time. What a great start to my day reading that.
- kunle 15y ago
  Not at all off-topic. Its spot on, and entirely relevant in this context. In general pretty fun to read something that captures something so fundamental. Wish there were more folks like joe peacock to say those words to the awkward 14 - 16 year olds we were. Would have alleviated the pain a little bit.
- personlurking 15y ago
  Also slightly off-topic, but in one of Alain de Botton's videos on Youtube titled "Epicurus on Happiness" [1], he states that Epicurus saw happiness as having 3 components: self-reflection, self-sufficiency and friendship. This leaves the question of 'can happiness be hacked?' to be pondered. [1] - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LTTRQcZ8c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LTTRQcZ8c
aculver 15y ago
The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.
- j45 15y ago
  I dealt with some really harsh stuff in school. I only remember my real friends. Learning how to pick you're real friends based on loyalty, character, values and doing the right thing is critical. I won't tell you not to home school your kids. I will ask you to make sure they have the years of social interaction skills to find those other unique lone souls who do their thing regardless. I'll ask you to ensure they learn how to deal with all kinda of people in the real world, unless you plan door them to forever telecommute.
- jenius 15y ago
  While I understand your point of view based on this one observation, I think this is a terrible idea if you look at the big picture. Whether they get bullied or not, high school is an extremely important time for kids to gain social skills and learn how to deal with people. Dealing with people is one of the most important skills you can have, period. And that often means dealing with people that are being dicks, and people who you like and are good friends. And if people are being dicks, which they inevitably will be, it's a good time for you to think about it, build your self confidence, and figure out who you are. I understand that sheltering them from the real world is not your motivation for this opinion, but it is the reality of what will happen. Your kids will miss out on a huge period of personal growth and a large expansion of their experience dealing with other people which they will never be able to get back later.
  - euroclydon 15y ago
    I think it's interesting to hear more about offensive homeschooling. For instance, my brother is a senior commercial pilot. He has two high school aged boys who have been homeschooled all their life. They play (American) football in the fall and spend the rest of the year traveling the country for competitive sailboat races and catching free flights to Asia, Africa, South America and more with their mom.
excerionsforte 15y ago
Interesting. I learned during my tenure in college (still here) that everyone is weird.. has their quiddities and more over it's more or less isolated from what is really going on outside of it. You really aren't lonely, as per say. You always have the opportunity to connect to people who aren't similar to you, but quality over quantity I say. :)
jwingy 15y ago
Awesome. On a side note, I wonder why this culture of popularity has to be the default in our schools?
- roguecoder 15y ago
  Mirror neurons: http://dspace.learningnetworks.org/bitstream/1820/1858/1/VanGog-etal_EPR_2009.pdf http://dspace.learningnetworks.org/bitstream/1820/1858/1/Van...
- EliAndrewC 15y ago
  Paul Graham explores this question at great length in his essay, "Why Nerds Are Unpopular": http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
- chris_wot 15y ago
  Wanting to be popular is a popular topic in high school.
- Tooluka 15y ago
  Because kids are uncontrolled there (in varying degrees), so they tend to self organize. PS: this is default culture in any school.
- kingkilr 15y ago
  Do you think it's just limited to schools?
- mattgreenrocks 15y ago
  Status-seeking behavior is not restricted to teenagers. Adults grovel at similar idols: money, beauty, fame. They just employ a bit more mis-direction to not make it seem so obvious.
- personlurking 15y ago
  Always odd to have always realized that the 'cool' kids are popular because they can successfully mimic styles and behaviors pushed on them by corporations and style-makers. Shouldn't they instead be called 'mindless drones'? Merchants of Cool http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/
pgsandstrom 15y ago
There is also a hidden aspect of it: Those people who don't overcome teenage awkwardness. Those who never regain their confidence and end up the weird tech dude at the office whom no one ever speaks to. This guy might be able to feed the kids confidence, and then you can encourage "weirdness", but it isn't always as easy as that. Sometimes parents should just tell their kids to go play sports or whatever, no matter if they want it or not, just so they can learn to interact with other people and "be normal".
- Retric 15y ago
  As a socially awkward adult I can say I am one of the happiest people I know. I know enough to play the game if I need to, but it's just an act and I really do prefer to do my own thing. And I tend to do so enough that it's hard to maintain the basic social skills. I suspect the idea that there is something wrong with loaners is mostly just projection. It's easy enough to vilify other and loners make the best fictional villains, but other cultures also have the ideal of the monk in the woods. In the end games of status are only important for those who seek status.
- Tooluka 15y ago
  I second that. Better title would be "That's Why You Probably Won't Have Any Friends.".
- kstenerud 15y ago
  I'm hoping you mean encouraging your child to continue seeking out new and different groups (sports, clubs, whatever) until he finds a place where people will accept his strong individuality. If, however, you mean forcing him to join a group of "normal" people who will hammer him into the "normal" mold, I take great exception to your advice. There is no worse blow to your self esteem than selling out on yourself to gain the approval of others. Yes, people in general like to belong, so let them CHOOSE to belong to a group that accepts them being themselves. Here's what generally happens when you force an individualist into a group not of his choosing: 1. He resents you for deciding whom his friends should be. 2. It destroys his confidence because even YOU don't believe in him. 3. By the law of averages, his new group is likely to be comprised of exactly the kinds of phonies he hates, and they're likely to dislike him for his "weirdness". Confidence is one of the, if not THE most important thing in the world. People respect confidence, even if they hate you. Bullying is an attempt to destroy your confidence while building the bully's confidence in himself by thinking he's the better man for destroying someone weaker than him (and so long as you don't fight back, he's right, btw). Most people get their confidence by herding with other people and mimicking them. It gives them a false sense of security, but it's confidence all the same. Unfortunately, that confidence comes at the price of never being able to be their true selves, and never being able to chase dreams that differ too much from the accepted norm. Individuality and confidence are a potent blend. They breed explorers and free thinkers, poets, philosophers, disruptors, and cross-cultural bridges. They drive a person to blaze a trail of his own, bringing him after many trials and tribulations to doors that open but for a select few. However, this only happens IF he has the confidence in himself to try, and that comes both from within, and from his support base (you). Don't take that away from him!
magv 15y ago
Is this a US thing? In Ukraine, no-one is weird. No-one is a geek, or a nerd -- there aren't even equivalent words in our language. Nobody thinks less of you if you're smart, shy, or talk about transistors on occasion. There are no "popular kids", and even the scariest kid in school is not a bully. So, again, what is wrong with US schools?
- Tooluka 15y ago
  I'm from Ukraine and I can say that at least in case of one school you are wrong. There was complete pack of school BS - nerds, geeks, alpha's, omega's, dominance games, bullying, etc. etc. And it was a little better than average school in the capital. I wondered at times what it is like in the regional schools... PS: you don't need to call geek "a geek" to bully him ;)
  - xixi77 15y ago
    Those (regional or generally crappy) places can actually be better for some people -- true, bullying for the select unlucky few can be far worse, but on the other hand in my experience the rest of the students tend to be less cliquish compared to the "a little better than average" places.
- ajuc 15y ago
  I'm from Poland, I think we have similiar culture, at least we had when I was in primary school (in early 90'). You're right that there was nothing uncool with being good at math, or at computers - in fact people were jealeus about that(especially when you showed off that you "don't need to study"). But I experienced bullying nonethless, because I was shy kid with asthma, that couldn't play football or basketball. And other kids also experienced bullying, because of different reasons. But it stopped when I got to secondary school in bigger city. Just because all the bullies went to worse schools, because they couldn't pass the exam. Also - maybe it's rationalizing, but I think my primary school experience was good for me. At least I hope I won't forget what it feels like to be ostracized. EDIT: I think it's very easy for kids that pass their particular school test for coolness (and for their parents), to overlook that some other kids are bullied in their school. It just doesn't seem like a big deal that some people are "unpopular". When somebody is comfortable in a class, most bullying techniques won't work on him, and in effect seems harmless to him. Bullying isn't just beating up. Kids are very cruel sometimes, and they use psychical tricks for bullying, too. In my primary school one girl was always laughed off for stinking (I think she did not, really, but it's not the point). Kids made it into a play - they escaped from her, to not be "infected" with stinking. To parents - it's just some kids playing. But for that girl it wasn't easy probably. I'm ashamed to this day that I've participated in this, because I've tried to make them stop bullying me. Well, it was a good lesson at least.
StavrosK 15y ago
By the way, what's with the "even the furry had more friends than me" bigotry? Would "even the gay had more friends than me" fly?
- 54mf 15y ago
  Considering the fact that he speaks fondly of him outside of that line, I assumed he was being facetious and playing off the common social view of furries as loner weirdos. Not that that makes it okay, but I don't think it was meant to be harmful.
  - evincarofautumn 15y ago
    I chalk it up to the fact that what’s perfectly normal within a group of friends can seem harsh from the outside. He’s probably just accustomed to making jokes like that with Jay, so sees no issue putting it on his blog.
    - Lockyy 15y ago
      "Perfectly normal within friends." What is perfectly normal within friends can still be unwanted, even if it was okay at first. It's why I don't like to encourage jokey insults like this any more. Sure at first I was okay with homophobic comments, but after a while it turns from being playful with friends into hurtful and annoying. I definitely agree with StavrosK, it does feel very off to me.
      - evincarofautumn 15y ago
        Well, yes. I did find the comment in extremely poor taste, but I also don’t pretend to have enough information to assess it further. Nothing to do but suspend judgement and give a measured response.
        StavrosK 15y ago
        Well, if a gay friend of mine doesn't mind "even the gay gets laid more than me", it still doesn't mean I'll go around saying it in public or online, I don't have the relationship I have with my friend with everyone. Anyway, I was just checking to see if that was a generally accepted statement just because the word "furry" was there rather than something else, or if I was missing something.
evincarofautumn 15y ago
“Even the furry had more friends than I did.” That’s a bit harsh. Still, the overall sentiment is very much on point. It’s not really expected that a high school student should think for himself and go about his life normally, without adopting a particular social identity. Unfortunately, it simply doesn’t occur to some of us to bother trying to fit in. But if you keep an independent, open mind and learn to deal with people, you’ll do fine no matter what.
chernevik 15y ago
It's a great post. One of my kids struggles socially, and I've had similar conversations. I'd add this: You have to love the things you love. When you meet people who love the same things, and it could be a while, your friendships will go deep because they're founded on something deep and dear to you. And you'll be a great partner in exploration because you know these great things. Conceding yourself to other people's notions now erodes your ability to form real relationships later. Which isn't to say such kids shouldn't look for as much commonality they can find. And they should note that they may have some genuinely negative and offputting behaviors which they shouldn't accept in themselves. It's very hard for these kids to pick out the social cues that they should read because they get so many they shouldn't. But yeah, kids need to hear that it can sometimes take a long time to find their place.
nickik 15y ago
Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffrents in the schooling system. In Switzerland (most parts) we have 1-2 years of Kindergarden, 6 years of Elementry School and then the people get split up in 3 diffrent section depending on your grade. The lower to only take 3 more years and after them mandatory school is finished and most people start an profecional education via the Dual Education System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system). The other way is to go 6 more years and then most people go to a universety. The good parts are that more often then not you put people to gather that go together. The typical movie example where the bull beats up the nerd doesnt really happen. The next positiv thing is that you put people together that are about equal in how fast they learn. The guy who always distracts the class will not hold back the guy who wants to learn. The studends get the matiral in there own speed, thus they don't feel stupid because of the fast learners, witch can be bad for confidence and it can cause social conflicts. The bad is of course that you split up frindships because people go to diffrent schools and you just don't see each other that much anymore. This happend to me and only years later we really start hanging out again. Today kids are much better equiped to deal with this. To other bad thing is that often good studends could help the others. It seams to me spliting up teenagers that are in puberty is good way to avoid social problems. Other opinions why this problem seams worst in the US or is it just selection bias?
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  I was talking with my neighbor (a second grade teacher) about this over the weekend. I think there are two problems: first, everybody is lumped into the same groupings, so the "advanced" kids are bored and the "slower" kids are lost. That leads to conflict on its own, but then we make it worse by expecting everybody to go college track with one other option: drop out. For many kids, the college track education is worthless. My neighbor believes she can spot kids who are likely to drop out in second grade (there is a LOT of confirmation bias in that, I'm sure, but probably some truth). By making them all move ahead lock-step, we are, ironically, guaranteeing they are going to fragment and have problems. It is encouraging to see some signs of change in education (at least here in Utah). There are a lot more trade options (ability to get a CNA in high school or starting apprenticeships in trades, for example). The math program is being re-built in an attempt to change it from "this grade learns algebra, so if you aren't learning algebra in this grade, you are dumb". On the flip side, my kids' high school has partnered with the local state university to provide kids with the ability to have an associates degree by the time they graduate high school. So while education has been broken for a long time, and is still bad, at least anecdotally, it is getting better. The factory training ground aspect is changing, but, unfortunately, the authoritarian part is still getting worse (see, for instance, the six year old who was arrested for throwing a tantrum).
abraxasz 15y ago
I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given. In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the point where I would provoke people I barely know into arguments about politics, religion, whatever), and I have to be extra-careful with what I say and do, otherwise people freak out. Sometimes I slip and people think I'm crazy. But I'm getting better know, and I have a group of friend with which I can be myself. I provoke them playfully and they understand that it's just the way I am. And I'm grateful that they do. Someone quoted Alain de Boutton in the thread: "Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them". That's exactly right, but intimacy is not something you get immediately, for free. It's something you have to build, it takes time, and sometimes it doesn't work. Most of all, it takes compromises: people will accept you as you are when they realize that you're interesting and that you care about them. Now why should weird people go out of their way to befriend other people? Well you have to be pragmatic here, and think about what you really want. Friendship is an amazing thing, and is available to anyone, weird or not, and doesn't require you to change who you are. It just requires you to be patient and take it step by step. Is it being hypocritical? Pretending you're normal when you really aren't? Not if it's temporary. Think of it as a way to create a first contact, before working your way to a real connection, where both parties can act natural. That's what social interactions are about, that's what all this highschool BS is about, and that's why I think it's a bad idea to home school your kids. EDIT: An example of my weirdness in action: I often mess up with girls I really like just because I can't help saying outrageous things just to spark a good old argument. Damn.
- js2 15y ago
  I'm with you right up to that part about not homeschooling your kids (homeschool dad here). But I'll let it go since I think you may just be trying to provoke an argument. :) (Unless you've homeschooled, I don't think you have any idea how much social interaction homeschool kids can get; we don't just sit at home all day.) Edit: I see comments below on homeschooling and from homeschoolers. Our kids get a ton of social interaction outside the home: homeschool co-ops/events/park days with other homeschoolers, language lessons, sports (karate, soccer, equestrian), music lessons, girlscouts/boyscouts, university outreach programs, town provided activities (acting, choir, pottery, etc), temple, playing with all the neighborhood kids, and that's just off the top of my head. My kids are 9 and 11 right now and are way more comfortable socially, and better at it, than I (public school) ever was. Ultimately I think a lot of it has to do with the kids and the parents. We chose to homeschool our kids because we think we can do a better job with their education, but it certainly hasn't hindered them socially.
methoddk 15y ago
Thanks for this. I was the "weird" kid in junior high and someone just like you gave me that speech. It helped tremendously, and you changed that kid's life.
DanielBMarkham 15y ago
I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of honor. But there's nothing to be gained in being different in itself. While you should be who you are, if you only define yourself in how weird you are compared to others you're doing the same thing, only in reverse. Instead of saying "I will look at my peers and copy them" you're saying "I will look at my peers and do the opposite" Both of these are just the same kind of herd thinking. Being weird? Awesome. Being deliberately different? Not so much. You need to do a gut check on this one. Schools are full of a bunch of people who all are very proud of being different, just like everybody else. I also note that the gym conversation consisted of people comparing social preferences: sports teams, hollywood stars, and so on. These kinds of conversations form a type of social bonding -- a joining of group opinion (even if outliers are allowed). It's this very banter that creates the group identity that then shuns other people for being "weird". People are some funny animals.
- chops 15y ago
  "There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist." -Ayn Rand
- ScottBurson 15y ago
  Yes, except that teenagers don't know who they are yet. They have to experiment, trying out various identities and behaviors until they figure out what fits them and what doesn't. So defining themselves in terms of others, whether by similarity or by difference, is to some degree inevitable. They do need to be encouraged to grow out of it, though, so your point is very valid.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    They do need to be encouraged to grow out of it, though, so your point is very valid. Just call it a "phase," that always works.
akmiller 15y ago
It's definitely an inspirational story in a way...but lets not be quick to call the other kids "losers". We must remember that they are all kids just trying to find their way. Some kids find their way by trying their best to fit in while others might be like the kid in this story. You can build this kid up while not tearing the others down. Even the kids who are popular and mean, like the girl he mentions in the story, may at an older age find some of the things they did in school reprehensible. Lets not condemn them while they are still young and immature.
navs 15y ago
It was the same for me in Fiji. I was into comics, computers, video games and not rugby. In Fiji, not liking rugby instantly makes you an outcast. 7 years later and I'm no better. All that loneliness led to insecurities that I have yet to shake. Now I work in a studio with a bunch of designers, photographers and on occasion, models and I feel as lonely as ever. Hopefully in 10 years I can belong to a studio of amazingly weird, relatable people.
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Lapsa 15y ago
reminds me one of xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/610/ http://xkcd.com/610/
- Exposure101 15y ago
  Haha, xkcd FTW!
g-garron 15y ago
Wow, that was a little long-post, but I enjoyed it a lot. It remembered my school days, I used to be interested in computers and physics and math. Usually others seek me because they needed help on homework. Yes you feel yourself a little weird, but then you grow up, and you realize that weird is also cool. If you enjoy being weird. Let's be weird, if you want to.
growt 15y ago
reminds me of this: http://www.viruscomix.com/page500.html http://www.viruscomix.com/page500.html
Exposure101 15y ago
I'm glad there is still awesome people out there and thriving. I'm 25 and I still feel like the weird kid sometimes.
tzaman 15y ago
I wish someone explained it to me like this, back then.
chaostheory 15y ago
I like the essay as a whole, but there is one clue that struck me. "Then one day, Mike got tired of my bullshit and said those words to me. "That's why you don't have any friends," he said at very high volume. He deserved to say it -- I'd just told him to go fuck himself when he tried to explain why my girlfriend at the time was screwing someone behind my back. I called him every name in the book." It's not being weird that will make you a pariah; being an asshole does.
- egonschiele 15y ago
  If you read Daniel Goleman's Social Intelligence, he claims that being awkward will make you a bigger pariah than if you were just an asshole. Not sure how true that is. But I was certainly both awkward and weird in high school.
tehayj 15y ago
It is not about you or them being weird, it is about being real. If you are real you will get respect for that no matter what you are. You might not get respect from the "cool" group or the "geek" group but you will get respect from all those who would like to be like you but are not because they try to fit in.
kevinalexbrown 15y ago
I really identified with the article, and the author seems to have taken a reasonable course. But I would not call all groups with social norms that differ from you 'losers' that 'lost the battle to be themselves.' The author's transformation seems like it had more to do with finding somewhere he fit the social norms than realizing any group that didn't want him was full of losers with no personality. After all, the author found a group in like-minded anime fanatics, and his group has its own norms regarding conversation: The topics change -- what cars are best, what sports are better than other sports, what teams are better than other teams, what shows are better than other shows (but never politics or religion -- something you learn really fast in a gym is to never bring up the two topics most likely to incite violence in a building filled with metal bars and heavy plates). Someone who walked in talking about the Talmud all the time probably wouldn't fit in. And that's fine. It would just be sad if the kid, like a lot of nerds I've seen, unwittingly developed his own social norms, but was just as heart-breakingly rigid about them as the kids in his school.
rralian 15y ago
Yep, I was one of the brainiacs, socially awkward... not necessarily alone. More in the "activities" clique, which was by no means cool. I'm still pretty awkward, honestly. I'm either the life of the party or climbing the walls trying to get away from people. I have no middle ground. Anyway, while I totally understand supporting this kid and letting him know there's nothing wrong with him, I'm not so sure it's healthy to feed the "us vs them" (or "me vs them") mindset either. Though I totally understand it. Yes, everyone is an idiot in high school. Even him. The "cool" kids aren't necessarily giving up their identity just to fit in. Maybe they just like the same things. But honestly they're probably not all that happy either. Everyone is miserable, and they're all pretty much idiots. I mean, you're in high school. I think the important thing is to help build confidence (and importantly not arrogance, which is just a defense mechanism) in these kids. Find something they love to do and support them. Confidence is really the most attractive trait. Outside of just being super-hot, that is. :-) My son is five years old now, and I can already see his social skills following his daddy's footsteps. I see the other kids talk to him when I drop him off for school, and he'll just ignore them and stand off by himself. It's not them or anything they're doing, it's his mindset. I would desperately like to help him avoid the some of the mistakes I made. I think I'm actually pretty hard on him because of this. And then I feel pretty awful myself. Anyway, sorry for the verbose meandering comment... I've just been thinking through this stuff myself, so it's useful to write it out.
srconstantin 15y ago
I didn't have social trouble in high school, I had trouble in college. And that's something that I think goes unrecognized. Everybody knows about the crazy suburban high school experience, but a surprising number of my friends were severely unhappy in college. I can barely remember my freshman year -- I pretty much blocked it out. And I went to an Ivy League school. There was a kind of background noise level of callousness; people who were "different" in various ways were singled out for mockery in the school paper, people who were struggling were ostracized. And the undergrad culture was seriously misogynistic -- I accepted it as a given while I was there, but by the time I graduated I noticed I was advising girls not to go there if they had other options. It's not just high school that can suck. Teenagers are immature, but there are other kinds of environments that can be stressful and isolating. And the advice is the same -- get through it, and then find a culture where you fit in better.
tlear 15y ago
There is a lot to learned and gained from learning how to deal with people. Becoming a hermit is not an achievement. Most people who "do not have friends" are not in that situation because they are something extra special and different snowflakes but because they have not learned how to communicate, empathize, follow simple social norms and perhaps even take shower time to time. Not being an ass usually gets you at least few decent friends.
iamsoreal 15y ago
This is a nice story but it makes everything seem too easy and I say this as someone who had a similar experience at secondary school. Even though it has been 7 years since it was over, I still relive it. I was rarely bullied but I was almost completely ostracised for two years of my life. Before these years I had only a few friends and acquaintances. It's difficult to pinpoint any particular reason, but it was probably because I had truly awful brace treatments and that I was shy to the point of awkwardness; my geekyness and creativity could have been offset if I had been able to socially manouvre. To my detriment, my upbringing at home was fairly traditional and my parents believed that I should 'be a man'. I kept quiet. (They also didn't believe it was worth the money to buy me a school dinner so I could sit with everybody else, or drive me to friend's houses more than a couple of miles away... sigh) To survive: I learnt to cope with silence, I learnt to be my own person, I learnt to concentrate on my hobbies, and I learnt self-control. However as the weeks passed and I 'stood strong' my actual thought patterns deteriorated. Weird fantasies of not existing or martyring myself crept into my mind, and I began to find it difficult to pay attention to school work or imagine a better future. My grades dropped from A/Bs to C/Ds. I was very depressed, and my upbringing and personality gave me little opportunity to get help. All the time this went on, people washed their hands of me, understanding me to be yet another introverted kid who was happy to be on his own. I suspect there is very little which could have helped me even if I had spoken out. My point is that: a few days alone is uncomfortable, a few weeks unbearable, but a few months or years is traumatic. But, I will tell you the upside. The stressful moments in your life generate the person you are. The old adage is true: "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." and so one day I lay back and decided I would fix everything. Few will understand: after a difficult life, all adversity is shallow. "Ethos Anthropos Daimon." I destroyed my social anxiety. I gained back my self-confidence. I am driving myself like a machine to work and to educate myself. But it is so difficult to atone, and I am off the beaten track with strong individualistic values, constantly striving to be more. While I can empathise with all that have struggled, who can empathise with me?
- foobaar 15y ago
  I had to register just to point out how dead-on accurate you are. I was never bullied either because I became an expert at never being noticed. Camouflage is a fine defense mechanism if you're an octopus, but a human can't live that way indefinitely at the cost of his own individualism. Sooner or later you'll want to be noticed by potential friends and by the opposite sex. That "hide in the shadows" mentality which kept you alive through high school will start to work against you and the world will seem much smaller, colder and meaningless. Any success you have in life gets attributed to dumb luck. The mind kills any thoughts of pride in your work. You see no point in meeting new people because "they won't like me anyway" or "I just won't know what to say," which does nothing but fulfill your self-inflicted prophecy. You feel nothing but the lows in life; if you're like me, you may have used drugs to simulate the highs. Thoughts of martyrdom become common after a couple of years because if your life is going to be meaningless then at least your death shouldn't be. This kind of thought process takes years to form and unfortunately just as long to destroy. And after you succeed, you're still left with lingering thoughts about how many years you've wasted and how you'll never get them back. That particular demon is a serious little fucker because it's rooted in truth. If you've made it this far, though, then you've already faced worse. I eventually saw the problem and rooted it out, but many people never will. Hopefully this kind of discourse gets through to a few of them.
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sopooneo 15y ago
That sounds like a pretty good speech, but I can tell you from experience that the thing that will help kids most is listening to them. We tend to project whatever our frustrations were in childhood onto all struggling adolescents (and almost all adolescents are struggling) but the content of these heartfelt talks is much less important to the kid than being heard and knowing people care.
vectorpush 15y ago
Highschool is one thing, but don't let this advice fool you into believing that every subtle faux pas is a badge of honor. I know several brilliant "weird" people who have learned to love themselves but have simultaneously rejected the notion of managing their social quirks. You know the kind I'm talking about; the knowledgeable but frustratingly pedantic and egotistical smart-ass who can't glance passed his own hubris to consider the lowly opinions of mere mortals, or the talkative engineer who spends 30 minutes every morning boasting about his cool personal projects in your office (completely oblivious to the social cues that say "stop talking, let us get back to work"), or the enthusiastic geek who alienates non-nerds by always steering the conversation to obscure technical topics that half the group has no interest or knowledge of. Don't be ashamed of who you are, but don't let a headstrong attitude make you believe that it's never your own fault that others find your presence alienating.
skrebbel 15y ago
tl;dr: "has it ever occured to you that it's just everybody else's problem that they can't get along with you?"
davemel37 15y ago
My takeaway from this post is that, " You can really make a difference in someones life if you take a moment to empathize with their situation, and share a word or two of support." I bet that kid will remember this speech for the rest of his life. I know, cuz I have my share of good and not-so-good memories from as young as a little boy to as recent as yesterday about how far a nice sympathetic and understanding word or two can go, and how damaging a cruel and dismissive comment can be. We should all take a lesson from this. We are all human beings, and we all have commonalities we can empathize with and relate to in some capacity. It's all about perspective, and guess what... Perspective is all we have! Use it at your discretion. But remember, when that awkward weird boy changes the world one day, and looks back and says, "I was once in a gym hanging out with some older blokes, and one fellow gave me the confidence to be myself.I owe it all to him."
vikas5678 15y ago
I went through a similar phase during my high school years where I felt like I was weird and an outsider. When I was about to graduate, I found a gym, started working out and it changed my life. I feel happy for the kid in this story because he was at the gym, interacting with mature adults, and learning the discipline of weight training - great way to build a good foundation for his future.
sniperjoe 15y ago
After reading this article I am sure of one thing, he is not a minority. This existential crisis of "weirdness" he refers to is the luxury of those who are supposed to be normal.
dools 15y ago
Good story. As a side note: why do men have to be so mind numbingly boring? I had the misfortune of hanging out with a bunch of guys I didn't really know recently and the talk was similar to that described here (sports, women, avoidance of anything actually interesting like religion or politics). It was so boring I just left and went back to work. As a gender, I think men have a lot to answer for in terms of conversation skills. Stop being so boring and predictable. Stop talking about sports as a habit.
- zachsnow 15y ago
  Hang out with different men, odds are they will talk about different things. Or, find sports and women more interesting. It's quite unlikely that all men, everywhere, only talk about things that everyone really thinks are boring. It's also unlikely that everyone everywhere thinks discussing politics and religion is particularly interesting.
- gaius 15y ago
  You're probably missing all the implied and non-verbal stuff. It was probably really a conversation about philosophy couched in allegories and metaphors.
Tichy 15y ago
This message that you will get out of your small town and meet likeminded people is a big one. However, why wait miserable years? I think even in a small town there are on average enough freaks so that you don't have to be lonely. The question is how to find and activate them. Also, some socialization might be acceptable even for freaks, for example "normal" clothing, showering etc.
majmun 15y ago
If you are considered "wiered" that means you probably also lack the social competence to know what is the definition of word "friend". so don't wory as far as you know you may have many friends, but wrongly think that you dont have any. and your enemy may be your best friend. as far as you know.
Tsagadai 15y ago
I resonate with the article but I think the author only groks half the lesson. And, "Fuck them" is rarely the solution. It isn't being different, accepted, weird or yourself that is important. It is how well you can interact with other human beings. You can bang on about finding your niche or just being true to yourself but you are then following just another brand of conformity and group dynamics. The author himself realises this. He's in a gym, in this tale, with others he bonds with through social interaction and bonding (talking about sports, not pissing people off, joking about). What the author has stumbled upon is an understanding of the nuances of socialising and friendship. I resonate with the post because like the author I was weird in school. I'm still weird as an adult. I had few friends (sometimes no friends) and would frequently fight. I was an outsider. Growing up didn't change many of those things (well, I don't have to live in a Lord-of-the-Flies style dystopia any more). Growing up helped me realise it isn't about who you think you are it is about how you interact with others. I'm still an anti-social outsider but now I know how to make friends and get along with other people. Weirdness isn't something I wear as a badge of honour, it's just a factor of my personality. I can hide it to fit in. I can appear different to how I really am in order to get things done. You can be yourself, and you should with people you want to get close to. You have thousands of other people you will need to interact with to get things done, it is them that you have to be "less weird" for. Now, I can bond with people who once upon a time would (and did) attack me on sight. Since then, I've sat around talking the gossip/sport/trivia/current events/reported speech topic that gets them excited over a beer or other social medium. Everyone loves to think there is some huge unfathomable difference between them and people that they don't get along with. There isn't, the only thing preventing you and anyone getting along is how well you can socialise. It's the conclusion that I disagree with the author over. They are already practising the solution, his gym buddies are bonding with the kid and the kid seems to be learning. Most of us eventually learn how to interact with each other civilly, that's what growing up is about. Eventually, almost all of us learn how to be part of one tribe or another. We are biologically programmed to find our tribe. So what's you favourite....
padobson 15y ago
The money line: You want to know what's weird? Hiding who you are just to have the company of people you don't even like. That's weird. I was an athlete in high school, so early on I hung out with the athletes. Those in that group were not particularly enjoyable company, but I was too young to know what enjoyable company was. When I finally stopped hanging out with athletes and took my proper place among the band geeks and drama nerds, that's when high school started to suck less (it always sucked, but it sucked a whole lot less when I discovered the type of people I liked being around). Everyone needs validation. Everyone needs needs social acceptance. Everyone needs human affection. We're hard wired to require these things. But this can only truly come through introspection. You must conclude that you are a deeply flawed individual, and that those flaws don't separate you from your peers, but are actually the common ground. The reason why you don't have any friends is because there is a failure to realize these common flaws. One side will often point this out: "You're weird. You're odd. You're not normal". Such phrases are not meant to affect any emotion in the target, but rather to hide the flaws of the speaker. It is the truly enlightened individual that can recognize the speaker is as deeply flawed as they, and counter with affection and affirmation: "You're dead on. I'm crazy weird. You're beautiful/smart/funny/athletic, and I'm happy to be weird enough to say so" How much better would high school be for everyone involved if high schoolers could just avoid going on the offensive to hide their own flaws, stop thinking about what makes them better than those around them in the ceaseless measuring of cocks, and start measuring and encouraging the best qualities in their peers? Can such a (high school)world exist? I pray that it can.
mattiask 15y ago
Loved the story and it's very good advice indeed. I'd like to add one thing though. Having a "fuck them" or "they are losers" attitude (not saying the article advocates that) isn't really healthy. It might be great for a boosting your ego short term but it isn't constructive in the long run. I don't think one should look down or harbor anger/resentment towards anyone. Not because it hurts them, but because it hurts you, and your happiness. So my advice would be to try and understand why people act the way they do, why it probably is caused by some underlying problems/childhood whatever and if anything feel pity (so long it doesn't go into besserwisser territory) rather than resentment. It's also great to be able to socialize with all kinds of people. They might not be exactly like you, they might not share all or any of your values but surely you can find something interesting in interacting and trying to understand them. Another sign of personal growth is that you don't have to convince other people they're wrong or convert them to your views. If it's being discussed you can put front your opinion in a constructive manner and let it be up to them whether to agree or disagree. Also always be open minded about other people's viewpoints and try to understand where there coming from and if there might be something to it. Sorry if I sounds a little fluffy or obivous but I feel that changing my own perspective on things like that has been very beneficial
zashapiro 15y ago
I really love this story. It's so incredibly hard to see the forest for the trees when you're that age. I love PG's notion that some kids are playing the popularity game and others are playing an entirely different game, because they're being individuals and are learning or pursuing something they want, regardless of popularity.
huherto 15y ago
I am very late to this discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts. I didn't like too much the advice of the article. I would have taken the opportunity to tell the kid about diversity, to appreciate the diversity of other people and specially his own. Observe that every body has strengths and weakness, that no one is perfect. Also, It can't be that everybody is an asshole. But even if they are, it is not his fault.
xxcode 15y ago
Never till I went to MIT did I not feel that I was weird. At MIT, it felt ok to be me. I was like that, and others were kinda like that, and we were good together.

1041 points by kilian 15y ago

outstanding article; things ring so so true. Highschool is such a rough time with getting people singled out, and it's hard for those who are individuals. Kudos to this guy for an outstanding talk to this kid; inspires hopefully many of us to share our experiences and reach out to younger kids we see.

anotherthrow 15y ago

The sentiment of the article is great, but a lot of it just doesn't quite ring true. When the auther starts going on about other people being losers, and him being a winner, because they do things he doesn't personally value, you start to wonder if he is really free from defining himself in contrast to the guys who excluded him years ago. Life isn't a competition like that. There's a classic transformation you see a lot of high-functioning geeks go through when they leave school, and start earning more money, living more cosmopolitan lifestyles and meeting more interesting people than those they left behind - they flip around and start juding their ex-classmates negatively in just the way their classmates judged them. You see it a lot on places like reddit, and I think it comes through a little in this article.

unalone 15y ago
It might come through a little, but there's a difference between comparing yourself perpetually to the people who used to torture you, and feeling sympathetic to a 14-year-old kid who's being tortured now because you remember what it was like to be his age. It's not too bad to remember that things used to suck, and that they're better now. Plus, I don't know a thing about this guy, but he sounds like like a cool dude from this blog post.
- anotherthrow 15y ago
  I know, but on a (probably unfairly) uncharitable reading his advice is 'don't worry, that girl who didn't want to kiss you is a loser, and so are the people who don't want to hang out with you'. It might be comforting, but I don't think it's healthy or true attitude to take.
DanielStraight 15y ago
This is basically what I wanted to point out. And please understand I intend this to build up the community, not to tear down the author of the post. "It's not me that's weird, it's them" is the wrong path to self-esteem. Really, it's a form of retaliation, and it's dangerous. If you categorize people who aren't like you as "weird" and write them off, then you are acting the same as those who are bullying you. The solution to bullying cannot be bullying the bullies. I understand that when the author says, "There's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with them," his emphasis is on the first part. But the second part isn't necessary at all. And in fact, it's a dangerous attitude to have. "Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

losethos 15y ago

Cain and Abel

tseabrooks 15y ago

You can have all of the upvotes they'll let me give you. It's amazing being "all grown up" and looking out and realizing that highschool and all of the shit that happens while growing up has almost no connection to the real world.

ZanderEarth32 15y ago
Isn't the 'real world' relative? To a kid in high school, that is the real world. To a grown man among his peers at work, that is the real world. I never understood telling kids that high school wasn't the real world. I can understand telling them it gets better (and it does, I know) but to try to mask certain stages of their lives as not real doesn't seem genuine.
- AerieC 15y ago
  Maybe "the real world" isn't the right term, but high school certainly is an isolated, controlled, and artificial environment compared to the rest of the outside world. The kids are locked down and have little to no freedom and little to no control over their environment. Also, some things that are socially acceptable in high school are NOT socially acceptable in an adult workplace. In that sense, high school is not "the real world", because high school students don't have the same freedom or the same tools to deal with obnoxious people as they otherwise would in the adult world. In "the real world", you have legal recourse if someone in your workplace is harassing you. You can get a restraining order. You can talk to your H.R. department. You can sue your workplace and/or the person if you've taken the above steps and nothing has been done. You can quit your job and get a new one. In high school you have none of those luxuries. Unless the harassment is extreme, there is very little likelihood of getting a restraining order against another student. Furthermore, getting a restraining order is not something a high schooler can do on their own (they would need help from their parents). You can talk to the administration at the school, but they don't have the same power, nor the same incentive to avoid lawsuits (although this is changing) as a company's H.R. department. Also, many school administrators are still of the mindset that "kids will be kids" when it comes to bullying/harassment, and are unwilling to do anything about the issue. Finally, a high schooler cannot simply quit high school like an adult can quit his or her job. Again, it involves their parents's help. That is the difference between high school and "the real world". In the real world, harassment is a serious legal issue; in high school, it's just "kids will be kids". In the real world, you have at least a modicum of control over your environment; in high school, kids have no control. In the real world, actions have consequences; in high school, apparently, they do not.

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einarlove 15y ago

By motivating the boy, I believe it could only strengthen his own motivation. Keep it up.

chriseidhof 15y ago

Slightly off-topic, but still relevant: a great quote from Alain de Botton: "Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them." https://twitter.com/#!/alaindebotton/status/192491443884011520 https://twitter.com/#!/alaindebotton/status/1924914438840115...

RollAHardSix 15y ago
That is now one of my favorite quotes of all time. What a great start to my day reading that.
kunle 15y ago
Not at all off-topic. Its spot on, and entirely relevant in this context. In general pretty fun to read something that captures something so fundamental. Wish there were more folks like joe peacock to say those words to the awkward 14 - 16 year olds we were. Would have alleviated the pain a little bit.
personlurking 15y ago
Also slightly off-topic, but in one of Alain de Botton's videos on Youtube titled "Epicurus on Happiness" [1], he states that Epicurus saw happiness as having 3 components: self-reflection, self-sufficiency and friendship. This leaves the question of 'can happiness be hacked?' to be pondered. [1] - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LTTRQcZ8c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LTTRQcZ8c

aculver 15y ago

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

j45 15y ago
I dealt with some really harsh stuff in school. I only remember my real friends. Learning how to pick you're real friends based on loyalty, character, values and doing the right thing is critical. I won't tell you not to home school your kids. I will ask you to make sure they have the years of social interaction skills to find those other unique lone souls who do their thing regardless. I'll ask you to ensure they learn how to deal with all kinda of people in the real world, unless you plan door them to forever telecommute.
jenius 15y ago
While I understand your point of view based on this one observation, I think this is a terrible idea if you look at the big picture. Whether they get bullied or not, high school is an extremely important time for kids to gain social skills and learn how to deal with people. Dealing with people is one of the most important skills you can have, period. And that often means dealing with people that are being dicks, and people who you like and are good friends. And if people are being dicks, which they inevitably will be, it's a good time for you to think about it, build your self confidence, and figure out who you are. I understand that sheltering them from the real world is not your motivation for this opinion, but it is the reality of what will happen. Your kids will miss out on a huge period of personal growth and a large expansion of their experience dealing with other people which they will never be able to get back later.
- euroclydon 15y ago
  I think it's interesting to hear more about offensive homeschooling. For instance, my brother is a senior commercial pilot. He has two high school aged boys who have been homeschooled all their life. They play (American) football in the fall and spend the rest of the year traveling the country for competitive sailboat races and catching free flights to Asia, Africa, South America and more with their mom.

excerionsforte 15y ago

Interesting. I learned during my tenure in college (still here) that everyone is weird.. has their quiddities and more over it's more or less isolated from what is really going on outside of it. You really aren't lonely, as per say. You always have the opportunity to connect to people who aren't similar to you, but quality over quantity I say. :)

jwingy 15y ago

Awesome. On a side note, I wonder why this culture of popularity has to be the default in our schools?

roguecoder 15y ago
Mirror neurons: http://dspace.learningnetworks.org/bitstream/1820/1858/1/VanGog-etal_EPR_2009.pdf http://dspace.learningnetworks.org/bitstream/1820/1858/1/Van...
EliAndrewC 15y ago
Paul Graham explores this question at great length in his essay, "Why Nerds Are Unpopular": http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
chris_wot 15y ago
Wanting to be popular is a popular topic in high school.
Tooluka 15y ago
Because kids are uncontrolled there (in varying degrees), so they tend to self organize. PS: this is default culture in any school.
kingkilr 15y ago
Do you think it's just limited to schools?
mattgreenrocks 15y ago
Status-seeking behavior is not restricted to teenagers. Adults grovel at similar idols: money, beauty, fame. They just employ a bit more mis-direction to not make it seem so obvious.
personlurking 15y ago
Always odd to have always realized that the 'cool' kids are popular because they can successfully mimic styles and behaviors pushed on them by corporations and style-makers. Shouldn't they instead be called 'mindless drones'? Merchants of Cool http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/

pgsandstrom 15y ago

There is also a hidden aspect of it: Those people who don't overcome teenage awkwardness. Those who never regain their confidence and end up the weird tech dude at the office whom no one ever speaks to. This guy might be able to feed the kids confidence, and then you can encourage "weirdness", but it isn't always as easy as that. Sometimes parents should just tell their kids to go play sports or whatever, no matter if they want it or not, just so they can learn to interact with other people and "be normal".

Retric 15y ago
As a socially awkward adult I can say I am one of the happiest people I know. I know enough to play the game if I need to, but it's just an act and I really do prefer to do my own thing. And I tend to do so enough that it's hard to maintain the basic social skills. I suspect the idea that there is something wrong with loaners is mostly just projection. It's easy enough to vilify other and loners make the best fictional villains, but other cultures also have the ideal of the monk in the woods. In the end games of status are only important for those who seek status.
Tooluka 15y ago
I second that. Better title would be "That's Why You Probably Won't Have Any Friends.".
kstenerud 15y ago
I'm hoping you mean encouraging your child to continue seeking out new and different groups (sports, clubs, whatever) until he finds a place where people will accept his strong individuality. If, however, you mean forcing him to join a group of "normal" people who will hammer him into the "normal" mold, I take great exception to your advice. There is no worse blow to your self esteem than selling out on yourself to gain the approval of others. Yes, people in general like to belong, so let them CHOOSE to belong to a group that accepts them being themselves. Here's what generally happens when you force an individualist into a group not of his choosing: 1. He resents you for deciding whom his friends should be. 2. It destroys his confidence because even YOU don't believe in him. 3. By the law of averages, his new group is likely to be comprised of exactly the kinds of phonies he hates, and they're likely to dislike him for his "weirdness". Confidence is one of the, if not THE most important thing in the world. People respect confidence, even if they hate you. Bullying is an attempt to destroy your confidence while building the bully's confidence in himself by thinking he's the better man for destroying someone weaker than him (and so long as you don't fight back, he's right, btw). Most people get their confidence by herding with other people and mimicking them. It gives them a false sense of security, but it's confidence all the same. Unfortunately, that confidence comes at the price of never being able to be their true selves, and never being able to chase dreams that differ too much from the accepted norm. Individuality and confidence are a potent blend. They breed explorers and free thinkers, poets, philosophers, disruptors, and cross-cultural bridges. They drive a person to blaze a trail of his own, bringing him after many trials and tribulations to doors that open but for a select few. However, this only happens IF he has the confidence in himself to try, and that comes both from within, and from his support base (you). Don't take that away from him!

magv 15y ago

Is this a US thing? In Ukraine, no-one is weird. No-one is a geek, or a nerd -- there aren't even equivalent words in our language. Nobody thinks less of you if you're smart, shy, or talk about transistors on occasion. There are no "popular kids", and even the scariest kid in school is not a bully. So, again, what is wrong with US schools?

Tooluka 15y ago
I'm from Ukraine and I can say that at least in case of one school you are wrong. There was complete pack of school BS - nerds, geeks, alpha's, omega's, dominance games, bullying, etc. etc. And it was a little better than average school in the capital. I wondered at times what it is like in the regional schools... PS: you don't need to call geek "a geek" to bully him ;)
- xixi77 15y ago
  Those (regional or generally crappy) places can actually be better for some people -- true, bullying for the select unlucky few can be far worse, but on the other hand in my experience the rest of the students tend to be less cliquish compared to the "a little better than average" places.
ajuc 15y ago
I'm from Poland, I think we have similiar culture, at least we had when I was in primary school (in early 90'). You're right that there was nothing uncool with being good at math, or at computers - in fact people were jealeus about that(especially when you showed off that you "don't need to study"). But I experienced bullying nonethless, because I was shy kid with asthma, that couldn't play football or basketball. And other kids also experienced bullying, because of different reasons. But it stopped when I got to secondary school in bigger city. Just because all the bullies went to worse schools, because they couldn't pass the exam. Also - maybe it's rationalizing, but I think my primary school experience was good for me. At least I hope I won't forget what it feels like to be ostracized. EDIT: I think it's very easy for kids that pass their particular school test for coolness (and for their parents), to overlook that some other kids are bullied in their school. It just doesn't seem like a big deal that some people are "unpopular". When somebody is comfortable in a class, most bullying techniques won't work on him, and in effect seems harmless to him. Bullying isn't just beating up. Kids are very cruel sometimes, and they use psychical tricks for bullying, too. In my primary school one girl was always laughed off for stinking (I think she did not, really, but it's not the point). Kids made it into a play - they escaped from her, to not be "infected" with stinking. To parents - it's just some kids playing. But for that girl it wasn't easy probably. I'm ashamed to this day that I've participated in this, because I've tried to make them stop bullying me. Well, it was a good lesson at least.

StavrosK 15y ago

By the way, what's with the "even the furry had more friends than me" bigotry? Would "even the gay had more friends than me" fly?

54mf 15y ago
Considering the fact that he speaks fondly of him outside of that line, I assumed he was being facetious and playing off the common social view of furries as loner weirdos. Not that that makes it okay, but I don't think it was meant to be harmful.
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  I chalk it up to the fact that what’s perfectly normal within a group of friends can seem harsh from the outside. He’s probably just accustomed to making jokes like that with Jay, so sees no issue putting it on his blog.
  - Lockyy 15y ago
    "Perfectly normal within friends." What is perfectly normal within friends can still be unwanted, even if it was okay at first. It's why I don't like to encourage jokey insults like this any more. Sure at first I was okay with homophobic comments, but after a while it turns from being playful with friends into hurtful and annoying. I definitely agree with StavrosK, it does feel very off to me.
    - evincarofautumn 15y ago
      Well, yes. I did find the comment in extremely poor taste, but I also don’t pretend to have enough information to assess it further. Nothing to do but suspend judgement and give a measured response.
      - StavrosK 15y ago
        Well, if a gay friend of mine doesn't mind "even the gay gets laid more than me", it still doesn't mean I'll go around saying it in public or online, I don't have the relationship I have with my friend with everyone. Anyway, I was just checking to see if that was a generally accepted statement just because the word "furry" was there rather than something else, or if I was missing something.

evincarofautumn 15y ago

“Even the furry had more friends than I did.” That’s a bit harsh. Still, the overall sentiment is very much on point. It’s not really expected that a high school student should think for himself and go about his life normally, without adopting a particular social identity. Unfortunately, it simply doesn’t occur to some of us to bother trying to fit in. But if you keep an independent, open mind and learn to deal with people, you’ll do fine no matter what.

chernevik 15y ago

It's a great post. One of my kids struggles socially, and I've had similar conversations. I'd add this: You have to love the things you love. When you meet people who love the same things, and it could be a while, your friendships will go deep because they're founded on something deep and dear to you. And you'll be a great partner in exploration because you know these great things. Conceding yourself to other people's notions now erodes your ability to form real relationships later. Which isn't to say such kids shouldn't look for as much commonality they can find. And they should note that they may have some genuinely negative and offputting behaviors which they shouldn't accept in themselves. It's very hard for these kids to pick out the social cues that they should read because they get so many they shouldn't. But yeah, kids need to hear that it can sometimes take a long time to find their place.

nickik 15y ago

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffrents in the schooling system. In Switzerland (most parts) we have 1-2 years of Kindergarden, 6 years of Elementry School and then the people get split up in 3 diffrent section depending on your grade. The lower to only take 3 more years and after them mandatory school is finished and most people start an profecional education via the Dual Education System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system). The other way is to go 6 more years and then most people go to a universety. The good parts are that more often then not you put people to gather that go together. The typical movie example where the bull beats up the nerd doesnt really happen. The next positiv thing is that you put people together that are about equal in how fast they learn. The guy who always distracts the class will not hold back the guy who wants to learn. The studends get the matiral in there own speed, thus they don't feel stupid because of the fast learners, witch can be bad for confidence and it can cause social conflicts. The bad is of course that you split up frindships because people go to diffrent schools and you just don't see each other that much anymore. This happend to me and only years later we really start hanging out again. Today kids are much better equiped to deal with this. To other bad thing is that often good studends could help the others. It seams to me spliting up teenagers that are in puberty is good way to avoid social problems. Other opinions why this problem seams worst in the US or is it just selection bias?

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
I was talking with my neighbor (a second grade teacher) about this over the weekend. I think there are two problems: first, everybody is lumped into the same groupings, so the "advanced" kids are bored and the "slower" kids are lost. That leads to conflict on its own, but then we make it worse by expecting everybody to go college track with one other option: drop out. For many kids, the college track education is worthless. My neighbor believes she can spot kids who are likely to drop out in second grade (there is a LOT of confirmation bias in that, I'm sure, but probably some truth). By making them all move ahead lock-step, we are, ironically, guaranteeing they are going to fragment and have problems. It is encouraging to see some signs of change in education (at least here in Utah). There are a lot more trade options (ability to get a CNA in high school or starting apprenticeships in trades, for example). The math program is being re-built in an attempt to change it from "this grade learns algebra, so if you aren't learning algebra in this grade, you are dumb". On the flip side, my kids' high school has partnered with the local state university to provide kids with the ability to have an associates degree by the time they graduate high school. So while education has been broken for a long time, and is still bad, at least anecdotally, it is getting better. The factory training ground aspect is changing, but, unfortunately, the authoritarian part is still getting worse (see, for instance, the six year old who was arrested for throwing a tantrum).

abraxasz 15y ago

I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given. In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the point where I would provoke people I barely know into arguments about politics, religion, whatever), and I have to be extra-careful with what I say and do, otherwise people freak out. Sometimes I slip and people think I'm crazy. But I'm getting better know, and I have a group of friend with which I can be myself. I provoke them playfully and they understand that it's just the way I am. And I'm grateful that they do. Someone quoted Alain de Boutton in the thread: "Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them". That's exactly right, but intimacy is not something you get immediately, for free. It's something you have to build, it takes time, and sometimes it doesn't work. Most of all, it takes compromises: people will accept you as you are when they realize that you're interesting and that you care about them. Now why should weird people go out of their way to befriend other people? Well you have to be pragmatic here, and think about what you really want. Friendship is an amazing thing, and is available to anyone, weird or not, and doesn't require you to change who you are. It just requires you to be patient and take it step by step. Is it being hypocritical? Pretending you're normal when you really aren't? Not if it's temporary. Think of it as a way to create a first contact, before working your way to a real connection, where both parties can act natural. That's what social interactions are about, that's what all this highschool BS is about, and that's why I think it's a bad idea to home school your kids. EDIT: An example of my weirdness in action: I often mess up with girls I really like just because I can't help saying outrageous things just to spark a good old argument. Damn.

js2 15y ago
I'm with you right up to that part about not homeschooling your kids (homeschool dad here). But I'll let it go since I think you may just be trying to provoke an argument. :) (Unless you've homeschooled, I don't think you have any idea how much social interaction homeschool kids can get; we don't just sit at home all day.) Edit: I see comments below on homeschooling and from homeschoolers. Our kids get a ton of social interaction outside the home: homeschool co-ops/events/park days with other homeschoolers, language lessons, sports (karate, soccer, equestrian), music lessons, girlscouts/boyscouts, university outreach programs, town provided activities (acting, choir, pottery, etc), temple, playing with all the neighborhood kids, and that's just off the top of my head. My kids are 9 and 11 right now and are way more comfortable socially, and better at it, than I (public school) ever was. Ultimately I think a lot of it has to do with the kids and the parents. We chose to homeschool our kids because we think we can do a better job with their education, but it certainly hasn't hindered them socially.

methoddk 15y ago

Thanks for this. I was the "weird" kid in junior high and someone just like you gave me that speech. It helped tremendously, and you changed that kid's life.

DanielBMarkham 15y ago

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of honor. But there's nothing to be gained in being different in itself. While you should be who you are, if you only define yourself in how weird you are compared to others you're doing the same thing, only in reverse. Instead of saying "I will look at my peers and copy them" you're saying "I will look at my peers and do the opposite" Both of these are just the same kind of herd thinking. Being weird? Awesome. Being deliberately different? Not so much. You need to do a gut check on this one. Schools are full of a bunch of people who all are very proud of being different, just like everybody else. I also note that the gym conversation consisted of people comparing social preferences: sports teams, hollywood stars, and so on. These kinds of conversations form a type of social bonding -- a joining of group opinion (even if outliers are allowed). It's this very banter that creates the group identity that then shuns other people for being "weird". People are some funny animals.

chops 15y ago
"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist." -Ayn Rand
ScottBurson 15y ago
Yes, except that teenagers don't know who they are yet. They have to experiment, trying out various identities and behaviors until they figure out what fits them and what doesn't. So defining themselves in terms of others, whether by similarity or by difference, is to some degree inevitable. They do need to be encouraged to grow out of it, though, so your point is very valid.
- rhizome 15y ago
  They do need to be encouraged to grow out of it, though, so your point is very valid. Just call it a "phase," that always works.

akmiller 15y ago

It's definitely an inspirational story in a way...but lets not be quick to call the other kids "losers". We must remember that they are all kids just trying to find their way. Some kids find their way by trying their best to fit in while others might be like the kid in this story. You can build this kid up while not tearing the others down. Even the kids who are popular and mean, like the girl he mentions in the story, may at an older age find some of the things they did in school reprehensible. Lets not condemn them while they are still young and immature.

navs 15y ago

It was the same for me in Fiji. I was into comics, computers, video games and not rugby. In Fiji, not liking rugby instantly makes you an outcast. 7 years later and I'm no better. All that loneliness led to insecurities that I have yet to shake. Now I work in a studio with a bunch of designers, photographers and on occasion, models and I feel as lonely as ever. Hopefully in 10 years I can belong to a studio of amazingly weird, relatable people.

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Lapsa 15y ago

reminds me one of xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/610/ http://xkcd.com/610/

Exposure101 15y ago
Haha, xkcd FTW!

g-garron 15y ago

Wow, that was a little long-post, but I enjoyed it a lot. It remembered my school days, I used to be interested in computers and physics and math. Usually others seek me because they needed help on homework. Yes you feel yourself a little weird, but then you grow up, and you realize that weird is also cool. If you enjoy being weird. Let's be weird, if you want to.

growt 15y ago

reminds me of this: http://www.viruscomix.com/page500.html http://www.viruscomix.com/page500.html

Exposure101 15y ago

I'm glad there is still awesome people out there and thriving. I'm 25 and I still feel like the weird kid sometimes.

tzaman 15y ago

I wish someone explained it to me like this, back then.

chaostheory 15y ago

I like the essay as a whole, but there is one clue that struck me. "Then one day, Mike got tired of my bullshit and said those words to me. "That's why you don't have any friends," he said at very high volume. He deserved to say it -- I'd just told him to go fuck himself when he tried to explain why my girlfriend at the time was screwing someone behind my back. I called him every name in the book." It's not being weird that will make you a pariah; being an asshole does.

egonschiele 15y ago
If you read Daniel Goleman's Social Intelligence, he claims that being awkward will make you a bigger pariah than if you were just an asshole. Not sure how true that is. But I was certainly both awkward and weird in high school.

tehayj 15y ago

It is not about you or them being weird, it is about being real. If you are real you will get respect for that no matter what you are. You might not get respect from the "cool" group or the "geek" group but you will get respect from all those who would like to be like you but are not because they try to fit in.

kevinalexbrown 15y ago

I really identified with the article, and the author seems to have taken a reasonable course. But I would not call all groups with social norms that differ from you 'losers' that 'lost the battle to be themselves.' The author's transformation seems like it had more to do with finding somewhere he fit the social norms than realizing any group that didn't want him was full of losers with no personality. After all, the author found a group in like-minded anime fanatics, and his group has its own norms regarding conversation: The topics change -- what cars are best, what sports are better than other sports, what teams are better than other teams, what shows are better than other shows (but never politics or religion -- something you learn really fast in a gym is to never bring up the two topics most likely to incite violence in a building filled with metal bars and heavy plates). Someone who walked in talking about the Talmud all the time probably wouldn't fit in. And that's fine. It would just be sad if the kid, like a lot of nerds I've seen, unwittingly developed his own social norms, but was just as heart-breakingly rigid about them as the kids in his school.

rralian 15y ago

Yep, I was one of the brainiacs, socially awkward... not necessarily alone. More in the "activities" clique, which was by no means cool. I'm still pretty awkward, honestly. I'm either the life of the party or climbing the walls trying to get away from people. I have no middle ground. Anyway, while I totally understand supporting this kid and letting him know there's nothing wrong with him, I'm not so sure it's healthy to feed the "us vs them" (or "me vs them") mindset either. Though I totally understand it. Yes, everyone is an idiot in high school. Even him. The "cool" kids aren't necessarily giving up their identity just to fit in. Maybe they just like the same things. But honestly they're probably not all that happy either. Everyone is miserable, and they're all pretty much idiots. I mean, you're in high school. I think the important thing is to help build confidence (and importantly not arrogance, which is just a defense mechanism) in these kids. Find something they love to do and support them. Confidence is really the most attractive trait. Outside of just being super-hot, that is. :-) My son is five years old now, and I can already see his social skills following his daddy's footsteps. I see the other kids talk to him when I drop him off for school, and he'll just ignore them and stand off by himself. It's not them or anything they're doing, it's his mindset. I would desperately like to help him avoid the some of the mistakes I made. I think I'm actually pretty hard on him because of this. And then I feel pretty awful myself. Anyway, sorry for the verbose meandering comment... I've just been thinking through this stuff myself, so it's useful to write it out.

srconstantin 15y ago

I didn't have social trouble in high school, I had trouble in college. And that's something that I think goes unrecognized. Everybody knows about the crazy suburban high school experience, but a surprising number of my friends were severely unhappy in college. I can barely remember my freshman year -- I pretty much blocked it out. And I went to an Ivy League school. There was a kind of background noise level of callousness; people who were "different" in various ways were singled out for mockery in the school paper, people who were struggling were ostracized. And the undergrad culture was seriously misogynistic -- I accepted it as a given while I was there, but by the time I graduated I noticed I was advising girls not to go there if they had other options. It's not just high school that can suck. Teenagers are immature, but there are other kinds of environments that can be stressful and isolating. And the advice is the same -- get through it, and then find a culture where you fit in better.

tlear 15y ago

There is a lot to learned and gained from learning how to deal with people. Becoming a hermit is not an achievement. Most people who "do not have friends" are not in that situation because they are something extra special and different snowflakes but because they have not learned how to communicate, empathize, follow simple social norms and perhaps even take shower time to time. Not being an ass usually gets you at least few decent friends.

iamsoreal 15y ago

This is a nice story but it makes everything seem too easy and I say this as someone who had a similar experience at secondary school. Even though it has been 7 years since it was over, I still relive it. I was rarely bullied but I was almost completely ostracised for two years of my life. Before these years I had only a few friends and acquaintances. It's difficult to pinpoint any particular reason, but it was probably because I had truly awful brace treatments and that I was shy to the point of awkwardness; my geekyness and creativity could have been offset if I had been able to socially manouvre. To my detriment, my upbringing at home was fairly traditional and my parents believed that I should 'be a man'. I kept quiet. (They also didn't believe it was worth the money to buy me a school dinner so I could sit with everybody else, or drive me to friend's houses more than a couple of miles away... sigh) To survive: I learnt to cope with silence, I learnt to be my own person, I learnt to concentrate on my hobbies, and I learnt self-control. However as the weeks passed and I 'stood strong' my actual thought patterns deteriorated. Weird fantasies of not existing or martyring myself crept into my mind, and I began to find it difficult to pay attention to school work or imagine a better future. My grades dropped from A/Bs to C/Ds. I was very depressed, and my upbringing and personality gave me little opportunity to get help. All the time this went on, people washed their hands of me, understanding me to be yet another introverted kid who was happy to be on his own. I suspect there is very little which could have helped me even if I had spoken out. My point is that: a few days alone is uncomfortable, a few weeks unbearable, but a few months or years is traumatic. But, I will tell you the upside. The stressful moments in your life generate the person you are. The old adage is true: "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." and so one day I lay back and decided I would fix everything. Few will understand: after a difficult life, all adversity is shallow. "Ethos Anthropos Daimon." I destroyed my social anxiety. I gained back my self-confidence. I am driving myself like a machine to work and to educate myself. But it is so difficult to atone, and I am off the beaten track with strong individualistic values, constantly striving to be more. While I can empathise with all that have struggled, who can empathise with me?

foobaar 15y ago
I had to register just to point out how dead-on accurate you are. I was never bullied either because I became an expert at never being noticed. Camouflage is a fine defense mechanism if you're an octopus, but a human can't live that way indefinitely at the cost of his own individualism. Sooner or later you'll want to be noticed by potential friends and by the opposite sex. That "hide in the shadows" mentality which kept you alive through high school will start to work against you and the world will seem much smaller, colder and meaningless. Any success you have in life gets attributed to dumb luck. The mind kills any thoughts of pride in your work. You see no point in meeting new people because "they won't like me anyway" or "I just won't know what to say," which does nothing but fulfill your self-inflicted prophecy. You feel nothing but the lows in life; if you're like me, you may have used drugs to simulate the highs. Thoughts of martyrdom become common after a couple of years because if your life is going to be meaningless then at least your death shouldn't be. This kind of thought process takes years to form and unfortunately just as long to destroy. And after you succeed, you're still left with lingering thoughts about how many years you've wasted and how you'll never get them back. That particular demon is a serious little fucker because it's rooted in truth. If you've made it this far, though, then you've already faced worse. I eventually saw the problem and rooted it out, but many people never will. Hopefully this kind of discourse gets through to a few of them.

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sopooneo 15y ago

That sounds like a pretty good speech, but I can tell you from experience that the thing that will help kids most is listening to them. We tend to project whatever our frustrations were in childhood onto all struggling adolescents (and almost all adolescents are struggling) but the content of these heartfelt talks is much less important to the kid than being heard and knowing people care.

vectorpush 15y ago

Highschool is one thing, but don't let this advice fool you into believing that every subtle faux pas is a badge of honor. I know several brilliant "weird" people who have learned to love themselves but have simultaneously rejected the notion of managing their social quirks. You know the kind I'm talking about; the knowledgeable but frustratingly pedantic and egotistical smart-ass who can't glance passed his own hubris to consider the lowly opinions of mere mortals, or the talkative engineer who spends 30 minutes every morning boasting about his cool personal projects in your office (completely oblivious to the social cues that say "stop talking, let us get back to work"), or the enthusiastic geek who alienates non-nerds by always steering the conversation to obscure technical topics that half the group has no interest or knowledge of. Don't be ashamed of who you are, but don't let a headstrong attitude make you believe that it's never your own fault that others find your presence alienating.

skrebbel 15y ago

tl;dr: "has it ever occured to you that it's just everybody else's problem that they can't get along with you?"

davemel37 15y ago

My takeaway from this post is that, " You can really make a difference in someones life if you take a moment to empathize with their situation, and share a word or two of support." I bet that kid will remember this speech for the rest of his life. I know, cuz I have my share of good and not-so-good memories from as young as a little boy to as recent as yesterday about how far a nice sympathetic and understanding word or two can go, and how damaging a cruel and dismissive comment can be. We should all take a lesson from this. We are all human beings, and we all have commonalities we can empathize with and relate to in some capacity. It's all about perspective, and guess what... Perspective is all we have! Use it at your discretion. But remember, when that awkward weird boy changes the world one day, and looks back and says, "I was once in a gym hanging out with some older blokes, and one fellow gave me the confidence to be myself.I owe it all to him."

vikas5678 15y ago

I went through a similar phase during my high school years where I felt like I was weird and an outsider. When I was about to graduate, I found a gym, started working out and it changed my life. I feel happy for the kid in this story because he was at the gym, interacting with mature adults, and learning the discipline of weight training - great way to build a good foundation for his future.

sniperjoe 15y ago

After reading this article I am sure of one thing, he is not a minority. This existential crisis of "weirdness" he refers to is the luxury of those who are supposed to be normal.

dools 15y ago

Good story. As a side note: why do men have to be so mind numbingly boring? I had the misfortune of hanging out with a bunch of guys I didn't really know recently and the talk was similar to that described here (sports, women, avoidance of anything actually interesting like religion or politics). It was so boring I just left and went back to work. As a gender, I think men have a lot to answer for in terms of conversation skills. Stop being so boring and predictable. Stop talking about sports as a habit.

zachsnow 15y ago
Hang out with different men, odds are they will talk about different things. Or, find sports and women more interesting. It's quite unlikely that all men, everywhere, only talk about things that everyone really thinks are boring. It's also unlikely that everyone everywhere thinks discussing politics and religion is particularly interesting.
gaius 15y ago
You're probably missing all the implied and non-verbal stuff. It was probably really a conversation about philosophy couched in allegories and metaphors.

Tichy 15y ago

This message that you will get out of your small town and meet likeminded people is a big one. However, why wait miserable years? I think even in a small town there are on average enough freaks so that you don't have to be lonely. The question is how to find and activate them. Also, some socialization might be acceptable even for freaks, for example "normal" clothing, showering etc.

majmun 15y ago

If you are considered "wiered" that means you probably also lack the social competence to know what is the definition of word "friend". so don't wory as far as you know you may have many friends, but wrongly think that you dont have any. and your enemy may be your best friend. as far as you know.

Tsagadai 15y ago

I resonate with the article but I think the author only groks half the lesson. And, "Fuck them" is rarely the solution. It isn't being different, accepted, weird or yourself that is important. It is how well you can interact with other human beings. You can bang on about finding your niche or just being true to yourself but you are then following just another brand of conformity and group dynamics. The author himself realises this. He's in a gym, in this tale, with others he bonds with through social interaction and bonding (talking about sports, not pissing people off, joking about). What the author has stumbled upon is an understanding of the nuances of socialising and friendship. I resonate with the post because like the author I was weird in school. I'm still weird as an adult. I had few friends (sometimes no friends) and would frequently fight. I was an outsider. Growing up didn't change many of those things (well, I don't have to live in a Lord-of-the-Flies style dystopia any more). Growing up helped me realise it isn't about who you think you are it is about how you interact with others. I'm still an anti-social outsider but now I know how to make friends and get along with other people. Weirdness isn't something I wear as a badge of honour, it's just a factor of my personality. I can hide it to fit in. I can appear different to how I really am in order to get things done. You can be yourself, and you should with people you want to get close to. You have thousands of other people you will need to interact with to get things done, it is them that you have to be "less weird" for. Now, I can bond with people who once upon a time would (and did) attack me on sight. Since then, I've sat around talking the gossip/sport/trivia/current events/reported speech topic that gets them excited over a beer or other social medium. Everyone loves to think there is some huge unfathomable difference between them and people that they don't get along with. There isn't, the only thing preventing you and anyone getting along is how well you can socialise. It's the conclusion that I disagree with the author over. They are already practising the solution, his gym buddies are bonding with the kid and the kid seems to be learning. Most of us eventually learn how to interact with each other civilly, that's what growing up is about. Eventually, almost all of us learn how to be part of one tribe or another. We are biologically programmed to find our tribe. So what's you favourite....

padobson 15y ago

The money line: You want to know what's weird? Hiding who you are just to have the company of people you don't even like. That's weird. I was an athlete in high school, so early on I hung out with the athletes. Those in that group were not particularly enjoyable company, but I was too young to know what enjoyable company was. When I finally stopped hanging out with athletes and took my proper place among the band geeks and drama nerds, that's when high school started to suck less (it always sucked, but it sucked a whole lot less when I discovered the type of people I liked being around). Everyone needs validation. Everyone needs needs social acceptance. Everyone needs human affection. We're hard wired to require these things. But this can only truly come through introspection. You must conclude that you are a deeply flawed individual, and that those flaws don't separate you from your peers, but are actually the common ground. The reason why you don't have any friends is because there is a failure to realize these common flaws. One side will often point this out: "You're weird. You're odd. You're not normal". Such phrases are not meant to affect any emotion in the target, but rather to hide the flaws of the speaker. It is the truly enlightened individual that can recognize the speaker is as deeply flawed as they, and counter with affection and affirmation: "You're dead on. I'm crazy weird. You're beautiful/smart/funny/athletic, and I'm happy to be weird enough to say so" How much better would high school be for everyone involved if high schoolers could just avoid going on the offensive to hide their own flaws, stop thinking about what makes them better than those around them in the ceaseless measuring of cocks, and start measuring and encouraging the best qualities in their peers? Can such a (high school)world exist? I pray that it can.

mattiask 15y ago

Loved the story and it's very good advice indeed. I'd like to add one thing though. Having a "fuck them" or "they are losers" attitude (not saying the article advocates that) isn't really healthy. It might be great for a boosting your ego short term but it isn't constructive in the long run. I don't think one should look down or harbor anger/resentment towards anyone. Not because it hurts them, but because it hurts you, and your happiness. So my advice would be to try and understand why people act the way they do, why it probably is caused by some underlying problems/childhood whatever and if anything feel pity (so long it doesn't go into besserwisser territory) rather than resentment. It's also great to be able to socialize with all kinds of people. They might not be exactly like you, they might not share all or any of your values but surely you can find something interesting in interacting and trying to understand them. Another sign of personal growth is that you don't have to convince other people they're wrong or convert them to your views. If it's being discussed you can put front your opinion in a constructive manner and let it be up to them whether to agree or disagree. Also always be open minded about other people's viewpoints and try to understand where there coming from and if there might be something to it. Sorry if I sounds a little fluffy or obivous but I feel that changing my own perspective on things like that has been very beneficial

zashapiro 15y ago

I really love this story. It's so incredibly hard to see the forest for the trees when you're that age. I love PG's notion that some kids are playing the popularity game and others are playing an entirely different game, because they're being individuals and are learning or pursuing something they want, regardless of popularity.

huherto 15y ago

I am very late to this discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts. I didn't like too much the advice of the article. I would have taken the opportunity to tell the kid about diversity, to appreciate the diversity of other people and specially his own. Observe that every body has strengths and weakness, that no one is perfect. Also, It can't be that everybody is an asshole. But even if they are, it is not his fault.

xxcode 15y ago

Never till I went to MIT did I not feel that I was weird. At MIT, it felt ok to be me. I was like that, and others were kinda like that, and we were good together.