4 ms·

In what situation do you want a triage AI drone rather than like, I dunno, an extra box of blankets and antibiotics? The whole concept seems silly.

mattlondon 3y ago
The idea is to identify the casualties that could benefit the most, and fast. Imagine if there is a bomb that goes off in a stadium or music venue or whatever (e.g. Manchester bomb in UK that was during a music concert where hundreds of people were injured simultaneously) or a major train crash etc where there are loads of major injuries simultaneously. There are say 10 first responders on the scene, but 200 casualties - who gets treated first? Blankets won't help. Chuck a drone up and it might identify the "priroity list" of who gets first aid first. E.g. someone could be in cardiac arrest who would benefit from immediate CPR, but you might not even get to them if you are manually triaging hundreds of casualties across a wide area, and they'd die "unnecessarily" just because the people on the scene didn't know/were overwhelmed/stressed out/panicking etc. I've only ever been in much much much less severe circumstances and can only say that it is hard to think straight and clearly even in such a "minor" situation - I shudder to think about what it would be like if you are amongst the first on the scene to something big. Anything that can help save the most lives is laudable.
- brandonjadams 3y ago
  Minor nitpick but interesting for laypeople: During a multi-casualty incident (MCI) the commonly used START triage system would invariably categorize a patient in cardiac arrest as 'Black' or 'Expectant'--these patients are typically passed over so that medics can treat more viable patients. Additionally, pulses aren't used for determining whether a patient is 'Black'. Instead, medics will check to see if the patient has spontaneous breathing: if respirations are absent, the airway is positioned (typically jaw thrust or head-tilt chin-lift). If no spontaneous breathing is present despite positioning, the patient is assessed as 'Black' and the triaging medic moves on. It is grim, but at a true trauma MCI (# patients >>> # rescuers) there should be no healthcare practitioners or rescue personnel performing CPR. This seems harsh but given the low odds of survival to discharge of traumatic cardiac arrests, it makes perfect sense in an MCI scenario.[0] [0] Work as a Critical Care Paramedic, to lazy for real references :P
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    Definitely interesting to me! I suppose everything is situation dependent, but what is the most extreme injury which would not receive a Black? If someone lost a limb and likely to bleed out - would that be deemed worth treatment?
    - brandonjadams 3y ago
      Would depend on the following factors: respiratory rate, perfusion to skin, mental status. Typically, an amputation with significant bleed would hit the respiratory rate (>=30/min) and perfusion (cap refill >=2 secs) thresholds for 'Red'. That said, I've been present at a plane crash with four patients where one had a clean amputation that had had a tourniquet applied immediately following the crash. He was speaking clearly, had adequate perfusion, and was breathing appropriately. Technically, this patient could be categorized as a 'Yellow' and was, in this case, considered a lower priority than the head injured patient trapped within the aircraft.
    - ip26 3y ago
      A single lost limb with major bleed would probably still be breathing, and so would not be Black. Their vitals would place them in Red. They are the people triage is designed to save, by minimizing time spent with Black, Yellow, and Green.
newsclues 3y ago
It’s the military, it sounds silly because it is to normal people. But when you have thousands of troops in combat and hundreds of dead and wounded, how would you triage under fire? This is a current problem in active wars.
- mcswell 3y ago
  There is also a triage nurse in every ER, whose duty it is to decide who gets treated first. However, of the three triage categories, one hopes in an ER that few if any patients will fall into the category of "dies even with help". But I suppose gunshot victims could fall into that category.
  - newsclues 3y ago
    This is an issue before the ER or even stabilization point. You have a battlefield spread out over miles, with dead and wounded all over, and limited resources to pickup the wounded. This is about triage prior to sending people out of a bunker into an active combat zone to rescue wounded, not waste time on bodies or people that are going to die before they get to the ER.
- davidthewatson 3y ago
  That's right. It's been a problem in war for decades. I'm happy to see a return to the defensive survival evacuation and triage role for AI, CV, and robotics as opposed to the regression from that role into autonomous killing machines. Building an Alan Alda MASH persona along with supporting performers and portrayers is not a bad idea, even if the dragging on the sled requires much less intelligence save for the head-banging of the injured that's tough to avoid and manage.
IanCal 3y ago
I think you misunderstand triage. Triage happens early on but it isn't about antibiotics or blankets or any other specific help. A triage drone shouldn't be treating anyone. Triage means identifying who needs what help and allocating people to do it. Often this is about identifying who is at most urgent need of help. So the job of a triage drone could be to identify the people who need help the quickest. Perhaps identifying someone who is unconscious but has a pulse in a larger group of dead people.
xboxnolifes 3y ago
So you give the people who need resources to live instead of wasting them on those who will live without them.
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  ...or die even with them. That's the less pleasant half of triage: Don't waste resources on people who are going to die regardless of treatment.
  - mcswell 3y ago
    Yeap. And that's of course why it's called triage, instead of diage (or would it be biage?). People are divided into three groups: those who will get well without help, those who will die even with help, and those who will die unless they get help.
    - kryogen1c 3y ago
      I'm not sure where you heard this, but triage does not use the prefix tri- meaning three. Triage is a concept that is instantiated differently per locale and is not a universal 3 bucket system.

mattlondon 3y ago

The idea is to identify the casualties that could benefit the most, and fast. Imagine if there is a bomb that goes off in a stadium or music venue or whatever (e.g. Manchester bomb in UK that was during a music concert where hundreds of people were injured simultaneously) or a major train crash etc where there are loads of major injuries simultaneously. There are say 10 first responders on the scene, but 200 casualties - who gets treated first? Blankets won't help. Chuck a drone up and it might identify the "priroity list" of who gets first aid first. E.g. someone could be in cardiac arrest who would benefit from immediate CPR, but you might not even get to them if you are manually triaging hundreds of casualties across a wide area, and they'd die "unnecessarily" just because the people on the scene didn't know/were overwhelmed/stressed out/panicking etc. I've only ever been in much much much less severe circumstances and can only say that it is hard to think straight and clearly even in such a "minor" situation - I shudder to think about what it would be like if you are amongst the first on the scene to something big. Anything that can help save the most lives is laudable.

brandonjadams 3y ago
Minor nitpick but interesting for laypeople: During a multi-casualty incident (MCI) the commonly used START triage system would invariably categorize a patient in cardiac arrest as 'Black' or 'Expectant'--these patients are typically passed over so that medics can treat more viable patients. Additionally, pulses aren't used for determining whether a patient is 'Black'. Instead, medics will check to see if the patient has spontaneous breathing: if respirations are absent, the airway is positioned (typically jaw thrust or head-tilt chin-lift). If no spontaneous breathing is present despite positioning, the patient is assessed as 'Black' and the triaging medic moves on. It is grim, but at a true trauma MCI (# patients >>> # rescuers) there should be no healthcare practitioners or rescue personnel performing CPR. This seems harsh but given the low odds of survival to discharge of traumatic cardiac arrests, it makes perfect sense in an MCI scenario.[0] [0] Work as a Critical Care Paramedic, to lazy for real references :P
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  Definitely interesting to me! I suppose everything is situation dependent, but what is the most extreme injury which would not receive a Black? If someone lost a limb and likely to bleed out - would that be deemed worth treatment?
  - brandonjadams 3y ago
    Would depend on the following factors: respiratory rate, perfusion to skin, mental status. Typically, an amputation with significant bleed would hit the respiratory rate (>=30/min) and perfusion (cap refill >=2 secs) thresholds for 'Red'. That said, I've been present at a plane crash with four patients where one had a clean amputation that had had a tourniquet applied immediately following the crash. He was speaking clearly, had adequate perfusion, and was breathing appropriately. Technically, this patient could be categorized as a 'Yellow' and was, in this case, considered a lower priority than the head injured patient trapped within the aircraft.
  - ip26 3y ago
    A single lost limb with major bleed would probably still be breathing, and so would not be Black. Their vitals would place them in Red. They are the people triage is designed to save, by minimizing time spent with Black, Yellow, and Green.

newsclues 3y ago

It’s the military, it sounds silly because it is to normal people. But when you have thousands of troops in combat and hundreds of dead and wounded, how would you triage under fire? This is a current problem in active wars.

mcswell 3y ago
There is also a triage nurse in every ER, whose duty it is to decide who gets treated first. However, of the three triage categories, one hopes in an ER that few if any patients will fall into the category of "dies even with help". But I suppose gunshot victims could fall into that category.
- newsclues 3y ago
  This is an issue before the ER or even stabilization point. You have a battlefield spread out over miles, with dead and wounded all over, and limited resources to pickup the wounded. This is about triage prior to sending people out of a bunker into an active combat zone to rescue wounded, not waste time on bodies or people that are going to die before they get to the ER.
davidthewatson 3y ago
That's right. It's been a problem in war for decades. I'm happy to see a return to the defensive survival evacuation and triage role for AI, CV, and robotics as opposed to the regression from that role into autonomous killing machines. Building an Alan Alda MASH persona along with supporting performers and portrayers is not a bad idea, even if the dragging on the sled requires much less intelligence save for the head-banging of the injured that's tough to avoid and manage.

IanCal 3y ago

I think you misunderstand triage. Triage happens early on but it isn't about antibiotics or blankets or any other specific help. A triage drone shouldn't be treating anyone. Triage means identifying who needs what help and allocating people to do it. Often this is about identifying who is at most urgent need of help. So the job of a triage drone could be to identify the people who need help the quickest. Perhaps identifying someone who is unconscious but has a pulse in a larger group of dead people.

xboxnolifes 3y ago

So you give the people who need resources to live instead of wasting them on those who will live without them.

dreamcompiler 3y ago
...or die even with them. That's the less pleasant half of triage: Don't waste resources on people who are going to die regardless of treatment.
- mcswell 3y ago
  Yeap. And that's of course why it's called triage, instead of diage (or would it be biage?). People are divided into three groups: those who will get well without help, those who will die even with help, and those who will die unless they get help.
  - kryogen1c 3y ago
    I'm not sure where you heard this, but triage does not use the prefix tri- meaning three. Triage is a concept that is instantiated differently per locale and is not a universal 3 bucket system.