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List of Animals That Have Passed the Mirror Test

thih9 3y ago
> if an animal isn’t able to pass, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they do not possess [self-awareness]. > For example, animals that rely on other senses more heavily than their vision may not take much interest in the sight of their reflections. Dogs, who recognize others mainly by their sense of smell, might quickly conclude that their mirror image is not of themselves or any other animal, because it lacks a corresponding scent.
- genman 3y ago
  So if I rub my dog against the mirror first and only then show it to her then there is a change that she recognizes herself in the mirror?
  - oneseven 3y ago
    See https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/science/dogs-smell-recognition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/science/dogs-smell-recogn...
    - genman 3y ago
      Cool, so would my method work then?
      - thih9 3y ago
        What are your criteria for "method working"? E.g. your dog would recognize an object that smells like the part of her that you rubbed. Your dog would also notice that it is a static scent, with an age of 1-2 minutes, that continues to fade. Your dog would also recognize your scent (you held the mirror), the scent of the mirror and perhaps some other scents in the air. Would you count this as "working" or not?
        genman 3y ago
        Right now my dog is completely numb to mirrors. I'm curious what would make her at least to show some attention. So perhaps there should be a scent dispenser behind the mirror?
        thih9 3y ago
        Note that we are numb to fire hydrants. I guess we could smell them, but it would’t tell us much. Meanwhile a sniff of a fire hydrant tells your dog how many other dogs have marked it, how long ago, where did they come from, how old were they, what were they eating, were they healthy, etc. I don’t plan to sniff fire hydrants though; and for the same reason your dog won’t be interested in mirrors. Unless they are actually using sight; e.g.: if you’re silent, scent is not a factor (very difficult to achieve), your position is unknown to the dog and someone has placed a mirror so that your dog sees your reflection in that mirror, and you wave - then your dog might spot you and go investigate.
        genman 3y ago
        My dog clearly is interested about visuals of other dogs but her mirror image doesn't impress her at all. The test you proposed would be interesting.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
scotty79 3y ago
Ants?
- EdwardCoffin 3y ago
  I haven't (yet) read the paper that they cite about this, but apparently though the journal it was published in is perhaps questionable, the authors themselves are respectable, having published other things in respectable journals. Perhaps the findings were outlandish enough that they had to resort to this one to get them out there. I'm getting this from Peter Watts' post about it [1]. Edit: I couldn't access the link to the ants paper from the article under discussion. Here's an alternate link to the paper that works for me: Are ants (hymenoptera, formicidae) capable of self recognition? Marie-Claire Cammaerts and Roger Cammaerts [2] [1] https://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822 https://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822 [2] http://www.journalofscience.net/showpdf/MjY4a2FsYWkxNDc4NTIzNjk= http://www.journalofscience.net/showpdf/MjY4a2FsYWkxNDc4NTIz...
pinum 3y ago
This youtube video seems to show a cat recognising its reflection: https://youtu.be/kQBHB682xsQ?t=20 https://youtu.be/kQBHB682xsQ?t=20
okasaki 3y ago
It's a ridiculous test; a meaningless hallucination like most of psychology.
- i8comments 3y ago
  And worse, it might justify animal abuse to some.

> if an animal isn’t able to pass, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they do not possess [self-awareness]. > For example, animals that rely on other senses more heavily than their vision may not take much interest in the sight of their reflections. Dogs, who recognize others mainly by their sense of smell, might quickly conclude that their mirror image is not of themselves or any other animal, because it lacks a corresponding scent.

genman 3y ago
So if I rub my dog against the mirror first and only then show it to her then there is a change that she recognizes herself in the mirror?
- oneseven 3y ago
  See https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/science/dogs-smell-recognition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/science/dogs-smell-recogn...
  - genman 3y ago
    Cool, so would my method work then?
    - thih9 3y ago
      What are your criteria for "method working"? E.g. your dog would recognize an object that smells like the part of her that you rubbed. Your dog would also notice that it is a static scent, with an age of 1-2 minutes, that continues to fade. Your dog would also recognize your scent (you held the mirror), the scent of the mirror and perhaps some other scents in the air. Would you count this as "working" or not?
      - genman 3y ago
        Right now my dog is completely numb to mirrors. I'm curious what would make her at least to show some attention. So perhaps there should be a scent dispenser behind the mirror?
        thih9 3y ago
        Note that we are numb to fire hydrants. I guess we could smell them, but it would’t tell us much. Meanwhile a sniff of a fire hydrant tells your dog how many other dogs have marked it, how long ago, where did they come from, how old were they, what were they eating, were they healthy, etc. I don’t plan to sniff fire hydrants though; and for the same reason your dog won’t be interested in mirrors. Unless they are actually using sight; e.g.: if you’re silent, scent is not a factor (very difficult to achieve), your position is unknown to the dog and someone has placed a mirror so that your dog sees your reflection in that mirror, and you wave - then your dog might spot you and go investigate.
        genman 3y ago
        My dog clearly is interested about visuals of other dogs but her mirror image doesn't impress her at all. The test you proposed would be interesting.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

scotty79 3y ago

Ants?

EdwardCoffin 3y ago
I haven't (yet) read the paper that they cite about this, but apparently though the journal it was published in is perhaps questionable, the authors themselves are respectable, having published other things in respectable journals. Perhaps the findings were outlandish enough that they had to resort to this one to get them out there. I'm getting this from Peter Watts' post about it [1]. Edit: I couldn't access the link to the ants paper from the article under discussion. Here's an alternate link to the paper that works for me: Are ants (hymenoptera, formicidae) capable of self recognition? Marie-Claire Cammaerts and Roger Cammaerts [2] [1] https://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822 https://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822 [2] http://www.journalofscience.net/showpdf/MjY4a2FsYWkxNDc4NTIzNjk= http://www.journalofscience.net/showpdf/MjY4a2FsYWkxNDc4NTIz...

pinum 3y ago

This youtube video seems to show a cat recognising its reflection: https://youtu.be/kQBHB682xsQ?t=20 https://youtu.be/kQBHB682xsQ?t=20

okasaki 3y ago

It's a ridiculous test; a meaningless hallucination like most of psychology.

i8comments 3y ago
And worse, it might justify animal abuse to some.