5 ms·

Israeli Justices Reject Netanyahu-Led Move to Limit Court

45 points by pg_1234 3y ago

pg_1234 3y ago
https://archive.ph/HpRgT https://archive.ph/HpRgT
sudosysgen 3y ago
Note that this was rejected 8-7, and that one of the justices that voted to reject just retired : https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-president-ends-her-term-on-monday-still-involved-in-ongoing-cases/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-president-ends-h... So this probably isn't over.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  Seems over for the foreseeable future. Not even right wingers liked what was happening the last year.
- linkgoron 3y ago
  Two of the justices (Hayut and Baron) are retiring - but I don't see this government trying something so radical again.
asylteltine 3y ago
[flagged]
- akira2501 3y ago
  Politics that are popular among silicon valley types are constantly posted here. To me, this doesn't make Israel look bad, it just makes the current prime minister and the "ruling party" look bad.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    [dead]
- WhackyIdeas 3y ago
  Genocide will make anyone look bad.
  - asylteltine 3y ago
    I agree. Which genocide are you referring to? The one China is committing now? Sudan? Yemen? Not sure which one you meant.
Georgelemental 3y ago
I'm not Israeli, don't know the full context, but the proposed reform seems like common sense? Why should unelected judges be able to overrule government decisions merely because they feel they are "unreasonable", with no reference to an overriding law? Such a procedure cannot be compatible with democracy. I don't often find myself in agreement with Netanyahu, but for once I think he has the right of it.
- catlover76 3y ago
  [dead]
- ostenning 3y ago
  > The justices, led by departing Chief Justice Esther Hayut, argued that the standard of reasonableness was a key tool for judges to protect against arbitrary government overreach, particularly in Israel, which lacks a formal constitution. Without the underlying framework of protections to protect democracy against populism or malignant leadership the democracy would devolve. There needs to be protections in so that the government does not erode fundamental structures. The language that Netanyahu uses in response to this ruling, in my opinion, is quite telling.
- Isamu 3y ago
  Reasonableness is frequently cited in judgments. Judges, especially at a high level, don’t just shoot from the hip. They cite the applicable laws, and pose the question: given the executive argues that what they did was permissible under these laws. Is that a reasonable interpretation or are they stretching beyond the limits of their power?
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    According to Wikipedia's summary, the concept of "reasonablness" as applied by Israel judges is much broader/vaguer than merely interpretation of laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform#Abolition_of_%22unreasonableness%22_grounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform#A...
- 3y ago
squarefoot 3y ago
Every morally corrupt politician soon or later attempts to curb the judicial system powers before they get him red handed; it has been already either attempted or done by Putin, Lukashenko, Orban, Erdogan, Al Sisi, Modi, and in some cases attempted but backfired (Bolsonaro). Happens in every part of the world, and I voluntarily omitted some of them to not incite flames. The worst of the worst invariably get to a point in which they're forced to neuter their own judicial system in order to continue their path towards what in some cases can be euphemistically called a "democratorship", that is, a dictatorship disguised as democracy. Netanyahu makes no difference here; he's just like many others who would never let a serious crisis go to waste and for sure he is now the #1 to benefit politically from Oct 7 Hamas attacks. Oh and since every critics to Israel must be immediately painted as antisemite, I'll close this with Hamas is a bunch of terrorist bastards who must cease to exist asap. Carpet bombing civilians is not the way, though.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  I don't like Netanyahu either (a cursory glance at my comment history wil bear that out), but that doesn't mean that judges can't abuse their power too. In this case, the supreme court appears to believe they have the right to overrule any government decision they feel is "unreasonable", which seems like an extremely vague standard for unelected officials to apply to the people's elected representatives.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  >> Every morally corrupt politician soon or later... What do morally corrupt judges do?
  - squarefoot 3y ago
    You don't limit powers of doctors to prescribe medicines just because you found an incompetent or corrupt one; you fire that one. Governments in truly free countries must not act above their own justice, just like judges can't when picked one by one; if a corrupt judge or a corrupt politician are caught they must be fired and prosecuted the same way. Corrupt politicians work against that, and they often pass laws that limit the judicial power as a whole, which would make no difference when dealing with a corrupt judge, but would help them to avoid prosecution. Invariably, all attempts at justifying those attempts to limit judges powers are from people who either fell for propaganda or is spreading it on purpose.
29athrowaway 3y ago
Netanyahu desperately wants to look strong, but instead is working against his own cause through poorly thought remarks and surrounding himself with people that suffer from the same problem. He could be doing better if he simply kept silence more often. His government does not hesitate to appear on TV interviews, but their poor preparation results in embarassing contradictions that sometimes are met with laughter. They consistently show an arrogant attitude that seems almost like a comedic sketch. An elementary school debate team would prevail over them. He is also a disaster for his belief system, cherrypicking some mitzvot taken out of context (like what was said about the Amalekites), and disregarding others.

45 points by pg_1234 3y ago

https://archive.ph/HpRgT https://archive.ph/HpRgT

Note that this was rejected 8-7, and that one of the justices that voted to reject just retired : https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-president-ends-her-term-on-monday-still-involved-in-ongoing-cases/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-president-ends-h... So this probably isn't over.

weatherlite 3y ago
Seems over for the foreseeable future. Not even right wingers liked what was happening the last year.
linkgoron 3y ago
Two of the justices (Hayut and Baron) are retiring - but I don't see this government trying something so radical again.

asylteltine 3y ago

[flagged]

akira2501 3y ago
Politics that are popular among silicon valley types are constantly posted here. To me, this doesn't make Israel look bad, it just makes the current prime minister and the "ruling party" look bad.
- catlover76 3y ago
  [dead]
WhackyIdeas 3y ago
Genocide will make anyone look bad.
- asylteltine 3y ago
  I agree. Which genocide are you referring to? The one China is committing now? Sudan? Yemen? Not sure which one you meant.

Georgelemental 3y ago

I'm not Israeli, don't know the full context, but the proposed reform seems like common sense? Why should unelected judges be able to overrule government decisions merely because they feel they are "unreasonable", with no reference to an overriding law? Such a procedure cannot be compatible with democracy. I don't often find myself in agreement with Netanyahu, but for once I think he has the right of it.

catlover76 3y ago
[dead]
ostenning 3y ago
> The justices, led by departing Chief Justice Esther Hayut, argued that the standard of reasonableness was a key tool for judges to protect against arbitrary government overreach, particularly in Israel, which lacks a formal constitution. Without the underlying framework of protections to protect democracy against populism or malignant leadership the democracy would devolve. There needs to be protections in so that the government does not erode fundamental structures. The language that Netanyahu uses in response to this ruling, in my opinion, is quite telling.
Isamu 3y ago
Reasonableness is frequently cited in judgments. Judges, especially at a high level, don’t just shoot from the hip. They cite the applicable laws, and pose the question: given the executive argues that what they did was permissible under these laws. Is that a reasonable interpretation or are they stretching beyond the limits of their power?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  According to Wikipedia's summary, the concept of "reasonablness" as applied by Israel judges is much broader/vaguer than merely interpretation of laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform#Abolition_of_%22unreasonableness%22_grounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform#A...
3y ago

squarefoot 3y ago

Every morally corrupt politician soon or later attempts to curb the judicial system powers before they get him red handed; it has been already either attempted or done by Putin, Lukashenko, Orban, Erdogan, Al Sisi, Modi, and in some cases attempted but backfired (Bolsonaro). Happens in every part of the world, and I voluntarily omitted some of them to not incite flames. The worst of the worst invariably get to a point in which they're forced to neuter their own judicial system in order to continue their path towards what in some cases can be euphemistically called a "democratorship", that is, a dictatorship disguised as democracy. Netanyahu makes no difference here; he's just like many others who would never let a serious crisis go to waste and for sure he is now the #1 to benefit politically from Oct 7 Hamas attacks. Oh and since every critics to Israel must be immediately painted as antisemite, I'll close this with Hamas is a bunch of terrorist bastards who must cease to exist asap. Carpet bombing civilians is not the way, though.

Georgelemental 3y ago
I don't like Netanyahu either (a cursory glance at my comment history wil bear that out), but that doesn't mean that judges can't abuse their power too. In this case, the supreme court appears to believe they have the right to overrule any government decision they feel is "unreasonable", which seems like an extremely vague standard for unelected officials to apply to the people's elected representatives.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> Every morally corrupt politician soon or later... What do morally corrupt judges do?
- squarefoot 3y ago
  You don't limit powers of doctors to prescribe medicines just because you found an incompetent or corrupt one; you fire that one. Governments in truly free countries must not act above their own justice, just like judges can't when picked one by one; if a corrupt judge or a corrupt politician are caught they must be fired and prosecuted the same way. Corrupt politicians work against that, and they often pass laws that limit the judicial power as a whole, which would make no difference when dealing with a corrupt judge, but would help them to avoid prosecution. Invariably, all attempts at justifying those attempts to limit judges powers are from people who either fell for propaganda or is spreading it on purpose.

29athrowaway 3y ago

Netanyahu desperately wants to look strong, but instead is working against his own cause through poorly thought remarks and surrounding himself with people that suffer from the same problem. He could be doing better if he simply kept silence more often. His government does not hesitate to appear on TV interviews, but their poor preparation results in embarassing contradictions that sometimes are met with laughter. They consistently show an arrogant attitude that seems almost like a comedic sketch. An elementary school debate team would prevail over them. He is also a disaster for his belief system, cherrypicking some mitzvot taken out of context (like what was said about the Amalekites), and disregarding others.