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You comment shows that you have no practical knowledge of the web ecosystem, and everything you know about it comes from all the blog articles that contributes

by d3w4s9 3y ago

You comment shows that you have no practical knowledge of the web ecosystem, and everything you know about it comes from all the blog articles that contributes nothing that's useful in real world use. The reality is that web is fast enough (even with all the tweaks and different approaches of frameworks, libraries etc), and it is the first choice for building a new cross-platform product and for migrating legacy projects. It makes all the business sense as well. Your pedantic arguments are not going to reverse that trend.

troupo 3y ago
> You comment shows that you have no practical knowledge of the web ecosystem You're talking to a person with 20 years of frontend development experience. But sure, do go on with your assumptions. Also, no idea what "web ecosystem" has to do with the patently false claim of " the most powerful layouting system and rendering engine.", but do go on > The reality is that web is fast enough I never claimed it wasn't. But, again, without clarification of what fast is, or what enough is, it's again nebulous, and wrong for a very wide variety of use cases. > it is the first choice for building a new cross-platform product and for migrating legacy projects. I have no idea what this has to do with any of the things in this discussion. > Your pedantic arguments are not going to reverse that trend. Java applets and ActiveX also where the bee's knees and the best thing since sliced bread, and drove businesses and brought in billions of dollars in revenue. All this has literally nothing to do with the technology and how bad or good it is.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  I have also been writing for the web for over 20 years. This doesn't really mean anything though. That is why measures are all that matters. Bad measures are still monumentally better than no measures at all. The sad reality is that most people writing for the web today cannot do so without a framework. They have no idea how the layers underneath actually work. If you want to understand performance you must measure for it in multiple different ways and have something meaningful to compare it to. All modern browsers provide fantastic performance measuring tools in their developer tools. Its how I got my OS GUI (in a browser) to execute as fast as within 60ms of page load.
  - troupo 3y ago
    I couldn't agree with you more. Sadly enough the supercomputers we have still let us get away with the worst of the worst of performances with little penalties
Xeamek 3y ago
>The reality is that web is fast enough No its fuckin not. We have devices running literally billions operations per second, orders of magnitude faster then what we had just few years ago, yet they struggle with rendering websites which comes down to presenting some good looking text. It's insane how my pc can compute entire 3d world with millions of triangles, 120 times a second, but it lags when I open few websites because some front dev crambed some 'cool' paralax effect onto it, or because facebook, (who literally invented react) can't handle it well enough to not make memory leaks everywhere. Did Usability of the web moved forward since few years ago? Sure. But compared to what computers can actually do, it's insane how bad things are nowadays
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  With a modern CPU and DDR5 memory you should be capable of running no slower than 10 billion DOM operations per second in Firefox. Usability is not performance.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    10 billions is a bit much, but yes
  - ale42 3y ago
    How much electricity is getting wasted into this, worldwide?
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  > et they struggle with rendering websites which comes down to presenting some good looking text. Umm... you're putting the blame on the wrong thing here, dude. > because some front dev crambed some 'cool' paralax effect onto it, As I said.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    You mean that the fornt end devs aren't actually responsible for the rendering, but the browser devs are? Would you apply the same logic to game optimization? That's it's not the responsibility of game devs, and instead we can shift all the blame to the gpu sdk team?
Turing_Machine 3y ago
> The reality is that web is fast enough This. So much this. Yes, there are contrived examples where DOM rendering speed makes a difference, and also a fair amount of real-world crapware (much of it written by companies that should know better) where shitty code continues to hit the DOM unnecessarily hundreds or thousands of times even after the page is allegedly "loaded", but that is not the fault of the DOM.
- troupo 3y ago
  > hit the DOM unnecessarily hundreds or thousands of times even after the page is allegedly "loaded", but that is not the fault of the DOM. If DOM was actually performant, this wouldn't be a problem.
  - austin-cheney 3y ago
    I think the misunderstanding is how to hit the DOM. If using static methods the performance cost is a memory cycle, so there can be many wasted steps and it’s still negligible. If access is via query selector then there is a string parse operation which is a few orders of magnitude slower. That does not mean the DOM is slow. Even Lamborghinis are incredibly slow if you never move out of first gear.
    - troupo 3y ago
      String parsing is negligible compared to the speed of the DOM which is glacially slow: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38835920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38835920 Come on, people, make an effort to learn how insanely fast computers are, and how insanely inefficient our software is. String parsing can be done at gigabytes per second: https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson If you think that string parsing of selectors is the slowest operation in the browser, please find some resources that talk about what is actually happening in the browser?
      - austin-cheney 3y ago

by d3w4s9 3y ago

troupo 3y ago

> You comment shows that you have no practical knowledge of the web ecosystem You're talking to a person with 20 years of frontend development experience. But sure, do go on with your assumptions. Also, no idea what "web ecosystem" has to do with the patently false claim of " the most powerful layouting system and rendering engine.", but do go on > The reality is that web is fast enough I never claimed it wasn't. But, again, without clarification of what fast is, or what enough is, it's again nebulous, and wrong for a very wide variety of use cases. > it is the first choice for building a new cross-platform product and for migrating legacy projects. I have no idea what this has to do with any of the things in this discussion. > Your pedantic arguments are not going to reverse that trend. Java applets and ActiveX also where the bee's knees and the best thing since sliced bread, and drove businesses and brought in billions of dollars in revenue. All this has literally nothing to do with the technology and how bad or good it is.

austin-cheney 3y ago
I have also been writing for the web for over 20 years. This doesn't really mean anything though. That is why measures are all that matters. Bad measures are still monumentally better than no measures at all. The sad reality is that most people writing for the web today cannot do so without a framework. They have no idea how the layers underneath actually work. If you want to understand performance you must measure for it in multiple different ways and have something meaningful to compare it to. All modern browsers provide fantastic performance measuring tools in their developer tools. Its how I got my OS GUI (in a browser) to execute as fast as within 60ms of page load.
- troupo 3y ago
  I couldn't agree with you more. Sadly enough the supercomputers we have still let us get away with the worst of the worst of performances with little penalties

Xeamek 3y ago

>The reality is that web is fast enough No its fuckin not. We have devices running literally billions operations per second, orders of magnitude faster then what we had just few years ago, yet they struggle with rendering websites which comes down to presenting some good looking text. It's insane how my pc can compute entire 3d world with millions of triangles, 120 times a second, but it lags when I open few websites because some front dev crambed some 'cool' paralax effect onto it, or because facebook, (who literally invented react) can't handle it well enough to not make memory leaks everywhere. Did Usability of the web moved forward since few years ago? Sure. But compared to what computers can actually do, it's insane how bad things are nowadays

austin-cheney 3y ago
With a modern CPU and DDR5 memory you should be capable of running no slower than 10 billion DOM operations per second in Firefox. Usability is not performance.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  10 billions is a bit much, but yes
- ale42 3y ago
  How much electricity is getting wasted into this, worldwide?
Turing_Machine 3y ago
> et they struggle with rendering websites which comes down to presenting some good looking text. Umm... you're putting the blame on the wrong thing here, dude. > because some front dev crambed some 'cool' paralax effect onto it, As I said.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  You mean that the fornt end devs aren't actually responsible for the rendering, but the browser devs are? Would you apply the same logic to game optimization? That's it's not the responsibility of game devs, and instead we can shift all the blame to the gpu sdk team?

Turing_Machine 3y ago

> The reality is that web is fast enough This. So much this. Yes, there are contrived examples where DOM rendering speed makes a difference, and also a fair amount of real-world crapware (much of it written by companies that should know better) where shitty code continues to hit the DOM unnecessarily hundreds or thousands of times even after the page is allegedly "loaded", but that is not the fault of the DOM.

troupo 3y ago
> hit the DOM unnecessarily hundreds or thousands of times even after the page is allegedly "loaded", but that is not the fault of the DOM. If DOM was actually performant, this wouldn't be a problem.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  I think the misunderstanding is how to hit the DOM. If using static methods the performance cost is a memory cycle, so there can be many wasted steps and it’s still negligible. If access is via query selector then there is a string parse operation which is a few orders of magnitude slower. That does not mean the DOM is slow. Even Lamborghinis are incredibly slow if you never move out of first gear.
  - troupo 3y ago
    String parsing is negligible compared to the speed of the DOM which is glacially slow: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38835920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38835920 Come on, people, make an effort to learn how insanely fast computers are, and how insanely inefficient our software is. String parsing can be done at gigabytes per second: https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson If you think that string parsing of selectors is the slowest operation in the browser, please find some resources that talk about what is actually happening in the browser?
    - austin-cheney 3y ago