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> This website can detect if your connection is using a Proxy or VPN. Empirically not. > You can add Proxy and VPN detection to your own Website or App. Plea

> This website can detect if your connection is using a Proxy or VPN. Empirically not. > You can add Proxy and VPN detection to your own Website or App. Please don't. Not just because of the false positives and false negatives, but because user privacy is actually a good thing.

gruez 3y ago
>Please don't. Not just because of the false positives and false negatives, but because user privacy is actually a good thing. Like it or not, bad actors use VPNs as well, and for some businesses the adverse selection caused by VPNs basically makes banning VPNs a no-brainer (eg. due to fraud).
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Ethically: Bad actors use a lot of things; that's a poor excuse for harming the innocent. Practically: The economics probably check out, but bear in mind that it's not one-sided; this will cost you legitimate users.
  - shitlord 3y ago
    I tried to pay for street parking a few days ago in Miami but the app wouldn't work at all. It turns out that ParkMobile just refuses to operate if your device is using a vpn and won't tell you the reason. It makes sense to filter out bad actors, but relying on vpn usage as the only signal for untrustworthiness is unwise.
  - grepfru_it 3y ago
    If the cost of fraud this stops is more than the lost cost of legitimate users..
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      I don't seem this impacting fraud in any meaningful way. The cost advantage would be in reducing bandwidth consumed by bots.
    - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
      By that logic all kinds of authoritarian measures can be viewed as fair. For example abolishing anonymous payments such as cash. TOR nodes should also be blocked, like in China. Death by a thousand anti-fraud cuts. In the end it's a perfect dystopia.
    - bdd8f1df777b 3y ago
      But what if we can better methods that have lower cost of legitimate users?
      - grepfru_it 3y ago
        We are not discussing that here? Obv your business should maximize profit and as such your comment falls into that function
    - beeboobaa 3y ago
      Enacting slavery is a great way to reduce costs and optimize productivity. Good idea?
      - grepfru_it 3y ago
        I believe that would be illegal, sir
  - gruez 3y ago
    > Ethically: Bad actors use a lot of things; that's a poor excuse for harming the innocent. Should I be able to walk around stores wearing balaclavas? Sure, robbers wear balaclavas, but innocent people do too.
    - flir 3y ago
      The way facial recognition's going, there's a case for it tbh. Or at least the standard hoodie-up-head-down-baseball-cap uniform of today's teenager.
  - out-of-ideas 3y ago
    Oh, that gives me a good idea for a new website/slogan: bad actors use Toothpaste; lets ban Toothpaste!
- tomxor 3y ago
  Like it or not bad actors also do not use VPNs, so best to block the internet entirely from your site - There are so many bad actors it will probably be worth blocking the handful of legitimate users don't worry ;) The optimal amount of fraud is non-zero. Also in an age of CGNAT, state enforced ISP level tracking and blocking. Blocking at the IP level is just lazy. It's like blocking a person because they come from the same town as someone else.
- dragoncrab 3y ago
  All the big corps I ever worked for had their devices configured to go through the central VPN and proxy even for browsing. But I guess blocking $$$ corporate visitors should be fine by you as well.
  - Mindwipe 3y ago
    It is extremely easy to differentiate between the two with a commercial VPN detection product rather than just someone's hobby proof of concept.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    The problem with VPNs is the exit node and not the act of using a VPN in itself. You will also be fine if you VPN to a clean IP, which is why corporate VPNs aren't generally affected. The problem is that for better or worse, public VPN exit nodes have a history of abusive activity and are blocked as a result.
- bgro 3y ago
  Bad actors use windows computers. We should ban all windows users from the internet. And android. I don’t want these poor people racking up my bandwidth costs when they’re not profitable data cows I can exploit or at least compel to buy something.
  - gruez 3y ago
    If you read my previous comment carefully, you'll notice claim isn't "sites ban VPNs because baddies use it", it's "it's sites ban VPNs because enough baddies use it compared to normal users that it outweighs the downsides of banning them wholesale".
  - flir 3y ago
    That's a bit heavy-handed. Can't we just get people to attach their salaries to HTTP requests? X-Milk-Me maybe. Much more fine-grained.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Do we still not have a foolproof fraud solution? Why not just force 3D-Secure (offloads liability to the bank) or ask additional questions/verification if needed? It seems like the problem isn't payment fraud or nefarious activity but "fraud" in the form of people not sharing as much personal data as spyware operators would like.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    > Why not just force 3D-Secure And guess what the bank will most likely be doing to mitigate that liability shift. It's heuristics all the way down.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      True, but at least as a merchant you’re no longer discriminating and being neutral instead. Also, the bank may have access to stronger identifiers and completely ignore your VPN usage.
bgro 3y ago
“Everyone who doesn’t use their SSN as their account name is literally STEALING from me because I can’t sell that information I’m entitled to for profit! If I can’t sue them for their theft then they should at least be banned from the internet!” “I make my users have an account to view my content I automatically scrape from paid sites by scanning for changes 10 times per second. I have unfiltered ads in every unused pixel to optimize efficiency. I also like the ads that look real because they get more clicks and pay more. But my users are using Adblock! They’re literally STEALING from me! When I added a paid content as a service plan to combat this theft, my daily active users dropped by 99%! That must be because they were all fraudulent bot accounts just racking up my bandwidth costs! And the others now just don’t want to pay me for my work! Literally STEALING!”

gruez 3y ago

>Please don't. Not just because of the false positives and false negatives, but because user privacy is actually a good thing. Like it or not, bad actors use VPNs as well, and for some businesses the adverse selection caused by VPNs basically makes banning VPNs a no-brainer (eg. due to fraud).

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
Ethically: Bad actors use a lot of things; that's a poor excuse for harming the innocent. Practically: The economics probably check out, but bear in mind that it's not one-sided; this will cost you legitimate users.
- shitlord 3y ago
  I tried to pay for street parking a few days ago in Miami but the app wouldn't work at all. It turns out that ParkMobile just refuses to operate if your device is using a vpn and won't tell you the reason. It makes sense to filter out bad actors, but relying on vpn usage as the only signal for untrustworthiness is unwise.
- grepfru_it 3y ago
  If the cost of fraud this stops is more than the lost cost of legitimate users..
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    I don't seem this impacting fraud in any meaningful way. The cost advantage would be in reducing bandwidth consumed by bots.
  - trompetenaccoun 3y ago
    By that logic all kinds of authoritarian measures can be viewed as fair. For example abolishing anonymous payments such as cash. TOR nodes should also be blocked, like in China. Death by a thousand anti-fraud cuts. In the end it's a perfect dystopia.
  - bdd8f1df777b 3y ago
    But what if we can better methods that have lower cost of legitimate users?
    - grepfru_it 3y ago
      We are not discussing that here? Obv your business should maximize profit and as such your comment falls into that function
  - beeboobaa 3y ago
    Enacting slavery is a great way to reduce costs and optimize productivity. Good idea?
    - grepfru_it 3y ago
      I believe that would be illegal, sir
- gruez 3y ago
  > Ethically: Bad actors use a lot of things; that's a poor excuse for harming the innocent. Should I be able to walk around stores wearing balaclavas? Sure, robbers wear balaclavas, but innocent people do too.
  - flir 3y ago
    The way facial recognition's going, there's a case for it tbh. Or at least the standard hoodie-up-head-down-baseball-cap uniform of today's teenager.
- out-of-ideas 3y ago
  Oh, that gives me a good idea for a new website/slogan: bad actors use Toothpaste; lets ban Toothpaste!
tomxor 3y ago
Like it or not bad actors also do not use VPNs, so best to block the internet entirely from your site - There are so many bad actors it will probably be worth blocking the handful of legitimate users don't worry ;) The optimal amount of fraud is non-zero. Also in an age of CGNAT, state enforced ISP level tracking and blocking. Blocking at the IP level is just lazy. It's like blocking a person because they come from the same town as someone else.
dragoncrab 3y ago
All the big corps I ever worked for had their devices configured to go through the central VPN and proxy even for browsing. But I guess blocking $$$ corporate visitors should be fine by you as well.
- Mindwipe 3y ago
  It is extremely easy to differentiate between the two with a commercial VPN detection product rather than just someone's hobby proof of concept.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  The problem with VPNs is the exit node and not the act of using a VPN in itself. You will also be fine if you VPN to a clean IP, which is why corporate VPNs aren't generally affected. The problem is that for better or worse, public VPN exit nodes have a history of abusive activity and are blocked as a result.
bgro 3y ago
Bad actors use windows computers. We should ban all windows users from the internet. And android. I don’t want these poor people racking up my bandwidth costs when they’re not profitable data cows I can exploit or at least compel to buy something.
- gruez 3y ago
  If you read my previous comment carefully, you'll notice claim isn't "sites ban VPNs because baddies use it", it's "it's sites ban VPNs because enough baddies use it compared to normal users that it outweighs the downsides of banning them wholesale".
- flir 3y ago
  That's a bit heavy-handed. Can't we just get people to attach their salaries to HTTP requests? X-Milk-Me maybe. Much more fine-grained.
Nextgrid 3y ago
Do we still not have a foolproof fraud solution? Why not just force 3D-Secure (offloads liability to the bank) or ask additional questions/verification if needed? It seems like the problem isn't payment fraud or nefarious activity but "fraud" in the form of people not sharing as much personal data as spyware operators would like.
- lxgr 3y ago
  > Why not just force 3D-Secure And guess what the bank will most likely be doing to mitigate that liability shift. It's heuristics all the way down.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    True, but at least as a merchant you’re no longer discriminating and being neutral instead. Also, the bank may have access to stronger identifiers and completely ignore your VPN usage.

bgro 3y ago

“Everyone who doesn’t use their SSN as their account name is literally STEALING from me because I can’t sell that information I’m entitled to for profit! If I can’t sue them for their theft then they should at least be banned from the internet!” “I make my users have an account to view my content I automatically scrape from paid sites by scanning for changes 10 times per second. I have unfiltered ads in every unused pixel to optimize efficiency. I also like the ads that look real because they get more clicks and pay more. But my users are using Adblock! They’re literally STEALING from me! When I added a paid content as a service plan to combat this theft, my daily active users dropped by 99%! That must be because they were all fraudulent bot accounts just racking up my bandwidth costs! And the others now just don’t want to pay me for my work! Literally STEALING!”