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Here's my anecdote: In extensive exposure to a top-25 global university, and to a top-10 elite one, there was a big difference in the student body and the educa

Here's my anecdote: In extensive exposure to a top-25 global university, and to a top-10 elite one, there was a big difference in the student body and the education. The latter was a different world; the education was innovative, brilliant, demanding at a very high level that I didn't anticipate. The students operated at a different level, world-class talent with shocking intelligence and, for their age, experience, being prepared - in a good way - to be world leaders. Maybe a very simple comparison is between young tennis players that work with a local pro and go to tennis camp, and the super-talented ones working with elite professional coaches, the kind that train world champions. It was clear that there is no way you could teach yourself at anywhere near the level of top-10, nor find that education at most schools. And remember that your peers are part of your education - you won't find that population of peers either. I know some institutions hire only from the elite, top-10 schools. I used to think it was 83% prejudice, but after those experiences I understand why. It's still lazy and unfair, but I also see significant reasons for it, maybe 33% prejudice. (Possibly other top-10 schools aren't as good as the one I have experience with, of course.)

laidoffamazon 3y ago
I'd love for you to tell me, step by step, what someone that didn't get into a top institution of any kind should take away from this comment. Because all I can take away is that people like me are just objectively inferior compared to you, destined to not be a future leader or professional. Is that not what you are attempting to communicate? I just want to be crystal clear. We all know people like you are superhuman. I'm just wondering what it should mean for the rest of us, the 99.99%.
- networkchad 3y ago
  [dead]
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  So turns out that someone studied this way back in 1999. I'll let you draw your own conclusions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/27/049r-102799-idx.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/27/049r-...
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago
    Unless I'm missing something obvious Dale & Kruger says people that get into top schools get the premium, which is exactly what I alluded to. What can the rest of us even do? Makes me think my class of people are just considered garbage humans by everyone.
    - ken47 3y ago
      What is your class of people? The 99.99% that you alluded to in another comment? Can that be called a class of people?
      - laidoffamazon 3y ago
        Correct, those of us that didn't get into any elite institution (and most likely aren't considered "qualified").
    - theGnuMe 3y ago
      You are indeed missing something obvious.
      - laidoffamazon 3y ago
        Help me out here, what am I missing?
        theGnuMe 3y ago
        Maybe read the article?
        laidoffamazon 3y ago
        It seems like my takeaway is identical to the article's takeaway, that getting in matters more than going. Unless you're thinking of something else. The whole "matters less multiple years into career" bit is a cope if it's just a measure of how inherently good you are if you can get in. There seems to be a clear separation between the people that get in and the people that don't!
- SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
  Yep, the Ivy League is one mechanism through which classism is perpetuated. The "elite" do think they're better than us, though it's rare that they'd be so gauche as to say it outright.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Here are my thoughts: The first step is to put aside subjective biases, put aside ourselves completely, which is necessary to reading and listening effectively - curiously and objectively. You may fear or hate those things, but you brought them to the conversation; they aren't what I wrote about. (For example, I never said I attended either institution, or that the students there are somehow superior.) Another step: There are more talented people, with better resources, than you - and than me, and you might be one of them. Good for you, if that's so; I hope you go much further than I do. That fact will always be true for everyone (ignoring a statistically meaningless theoretical exception). If we can't handle that fact, we can't talk about reality. Must we censor the idea that elite university education is exceptional, and their student bodies are exceptional? It's a cheap way out of the conversation. Step three is that it doesn't bother me at all that you might go further than me, or the students at these institutions might go further. What is to fear? I'm not inferior to anyone on the planet. If we rely on external rewards, especially elite ones, as necessary to a successful life, then 99.99% will 'fail' - which seems to be where you reached your own conclusions. Most importantly, all the external rewards in the universe won't fill the holes inside; people seek them as a substitute, including elite status, but it never works. The only answer is to be happy with yourself internally, to provide love and recognition internally, regardless of the external rewards. The external doesn't fill those holes, and will come and go; you are the only person who will always be there; nobody can take that away.
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago
    > and their student bodies are exceptional? It's a cheap way out of the conversation > I'm not inferior to anyone on the planet These appear in tension, yes? It’s pretty clear that I’m inferior to anyone at Harvard including Claudine Gay, and my life is far worse than anyone there and will not get better. It’s also clear that people like you would definitely believe people like me are subhuman “NPCs” because we didn’t accomplish enough in high school if you bristle at censoring your admiration for this exceptional, superhuman cohort of people. If they’re superhuman, I can only conclude I’m under human, yes?
    - wolverine876 3y ago
ken47 3y ago
Throwing out numbers like 83% and 33% seems like a handwavy attempt at precision and diminishes your argument. The real world is not like university, unless you live in the very small subset of the world that makes its living off research. Formal education / book smarts !== leadership.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  It's a representation of basic fractions that I think most people on HN recognize, and is not at all precise.

laidoffamazon 3y ago

I'd love for you to tell me, step by step, what someone that didn't get into a top institution of any kind should take away from this comment. Because all I can take away is that people like me are just objectively inferior compared to you, destined to not be a future leader or professional. Is that not what you are attempting to communicate? I just want to be crystal clear. We all know people like you are superhuman. I'm just wondering what it should mean for the rest of us, the 99.99%.

networkchad 3y ago
[dead]
theGnuMe 3y ago
So turns out that someone studied this way back in 1999. I'll let you draw your own conclusions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/27/049r-102799-idx.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/27/049r-...
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  Unless I'm missing something obvious Dale & Kruger says people that get into top schools get the premium, which is exactly what I alluded to. What can the rest of us even do? Makes me think my class of people are just considered garbage humans by everyone.
  - ken47 3y ago
    What is your class of people? The 99.99% that you alluded to in another comment? Can that be called a class of people?
    - laidoffamazon 3y ago
      Correct, those of us that didn't get into any elite institution (and most likely aren't considered "qualified").
  - theGnuMe 3y ago
    You are indeed missing something obvious.
    - laidoffamazon 3y ago
      Help me out here, what am I missing?
      - theGnuMe 3y ago
        Maybe read the article?
        laidoffamazon 3y ago
        It seems like my takeaway is identical to the article's takeaway, that getting in matters more than going. Unless you're thinking of something else. The whole "matters less multiple years into career" bit is a cope if it's just a measure of how inherently good you are if you can get in. There seems to be a clear separation between the people that get in and the people that don't!
SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
Yep, the Ivy League is one mechanism through which classism is perpetuated. The "elite" do think they're better than us, though it's rare that they'd be so gauche as to say it outright.
wolverine876 3y ago
Here are my thoughts: The first step is to put aside subjective biases, put aside ourselves completely, which is necessary to reading and listening effectively - curiously and objectively. You may fear or hate those things, but you brought them to the conversation; they aren't what I wrote about. (For example, I never said I attended either institution, or that the students there are somehow superior.) Another step: There are more talented people, with better resources, than you - and than me, and you might be one of them. Good for you, if that's so; I hope you go much further than I do. That fact will always be true for everyone (ignoring a statistically meaningless theoretical exception). If we can't handle that fact, we can't talk about reality. Must we censor the idea that elite university education is exceptional, and their student bodies are exceptional? It's a cheap way out of the conversation. Step three is that it doesn't bother me at all that you might go further than me, or the students at these institutions might go further. What is to fear? I'm not inferior to anyone on the planet. If we rely on external rewards, especially elite ones, as necessary to a successful life, then 99.99% will 'fail' - which seems to be where you reached your own conclusions. Most importantly, all the external rewards in the universe won't fill the holes inside; people seek them as a substitute, including elite status, but it never works. The only answer is to be happy with yourself internally, to provide love and recognition internally, regardless of the external rewards. The external doesn't fill those holes, and will come and go; you are the only person who will always be there; nobody can take that away.
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  > and their student bodies are exceptional? It's a cheap way out of the conversation > I'm not inferior to anyone on the planet These appear in tension, yes? It’s pretty clear that I’m inferior to anyone at Harvard including Claudine Gay, and my life is far worse than anyone there and will not get better. It’s also clear that people like you would definitely believe people like me are subhuman “NPCs” because we didn’t accomplish enough in high school if you bristle at censoring your admiration for this exceptional, superhuman cohort of people. If they’re superhuman, I can only conclude I’m under human, yes?
  - wolverine876 3y ago

ken47 3y ago

Throwing out numbers like 83% and 33% seems like a handwavy attempt at precision and diminishes your argument. The real world is not like university, unless you live in the very small subset of the world that makes its living off research. Formal education / book smarts !== leadership.

wolverine876 3y ago
It's a representation of basic fractions that I think most people on HN recognize, and is not at all precise.