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The pissing contests in terms of who is worse usually feels like a defense of our country. (I live in the US) Perhaps we should be most critical of our own cou

The pissing contests in terms of who is worse usually feels like a defense of our country. (I live in the US) Perhaps we should be most critical of our own country as presumably its where we have the most control and blame.

ericmcer 3y ago
What bar would you judge a society by besides other societies? Idealized futuristic utopias? I don't really agree we should be most critical of our own society. We should be critical of the society that deserves the most criticism.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  > What bar would you judge a society by besides other societies? Idealized futuristic utopias? Yes, obviously. You have an ideal of where you want to be, and you strive towards it, knowing that you may never get there, but that steps towards it are good. How else would we judge our infinite efforts as a citizen improving our country, and progress over time thereof? Criticizing others and sitting back and feeling good about ourselves for doing nothing but at least we're better off (for the moment) than some hypothetic far-off country that exists under different circumstances? > I don't really agree we should be most critical of our own society. We should be critical of the society that deserves the most criticism. I don't really agree that we should focus criticism on where it's unlikely to effect change. Criticism is, at best, a means to an end, and at worst, an attack aimed at others to distract and avoid change ourselves. If we aren't actively working towards that end, our criticism is useless or counterproductive. In the case of a country other than our own, actively working towards that end is unlikely, so the criticism being useless or counterproductive is likely.
  - Retric 3y ago
    > How else would you aim your infinite efforts as a citizen of your country? The problem with aiming for utopia is you don’t understand the problems. People in 1100 couldn’t really conceive of an obesity epidemic and the founding fathers didn’t understand the issues with political parties or lifetime nomination to the Supreme Court. Instead you can understand the local situation and aim for something slightly better. Rather than trying to have nationalized healthcare system what if we lower the age for social security eligibility to 60/55 or add kids under 18 etc.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      > The problem with aiming for utopia is you don’t understand the problems. I have never found that to be a "problem with aiming for utopia", so maybe it's purely a personal problem with your ability to aim. Achieving something slightly better is possible whether you're aiming for "something slightly better" or something more, so it's not like aiming high affects your ability to achieve low (it definitely doesn't). As for understanding the situation, etc., that all comes with what I was saying before, which is that criticism should be aimed at where it can affect change. If you can't effect change with criticism, the criticism is counterproductive.
      - Retric 3y ago
        Politically revolutions are probably the best example where people fought really hard to improve things wholesale and then ended up with Mow, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. Aiming for Utopia has a terrible track record because we don’t actually know how such societies would function under the hood just superficial details that seem like a good idea. What seems like perfection from far away is often premature optimization. Smaller changes may not work, but they are much easier to roll back. This isn’t simply criticism for criticism’s sake there real lessons to be learned here and concrete steps we can take. See the constitutional amendment banning alcohol and then it’s repeal and then repeating those mistakes with the drug war. etc etc
        ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        I haven't found any of your claims to be true. Aiming for utopia is how we've achieved literally everything as humans from cavemen to now. Though you're cherry picking the worst of humanity, the best of humanity also came from aiming for utopia. Indeed, all the terrible rulers you mentioned could have been from people not aiming for utopia. Larger aims may not be achievable, but they're how we get smaller changes. There is indeed criticism for criticism's sake (a lot of people use it to distract from improvement efforts). If we stick with that, we'd never have repealed prohibition because people would be worried about, "what if we repealed it the wrong way, we shouldn't aim for a utopia where alcohol prohibition is repealed, we should aim for something smaller, like 1% beer, repealing prohibition is just a utopia we'll never achieve". Welp, turns out aiming for the utopia is how we repealed prohibition. We imagined the world we wanted, and we made a part of it happen, and none of it was due to criticizing other countries. Let's just take as an example, a criticism you have of a different country. You can come up with the example. Just explain how your criticism has lead to making our own country better than it was. Remember: that's the only valid positive use of criticism: improving our reality.
shermantanktop 3y ago
Self-criticism can be a form of narcissism. And any organization (country, company, sports team, etc.) at the top of the heap is especially prone to looking inward already. When the big boss decides to feel bad about what they’ve done to others, they usually end up reinforcing their self-centered viewpoint. I think it’s quite healthy for Americans to realize just how messed up the history of other countries often is, and in different ways than the US.
Retric 3y ago
I get that, but reading up on Pol Pot or just narco states etc and you really appreciate what so many people want(ed) to go to the US. It’s ok to want things to be better even if you don’t think America is horrible. Improvement doesn’t need justification, it is literally it’s own reward.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

ericmcer 3y ago

What bar would you judge a society by besides other societies? Idealized futuristic utopias? I don't really agree we should be most critical of our own society. We should be critical of the society that deserves the most criticism.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
> What bar would you judge a society by besides other societies? Idealized futuristic utopias? Yes, obviously. You have an ideal of where you want to be, and you strive towards it, knowing that you may never get there, but that steps towards it are good. How else would we judge our infinite efforts as a citizen improving our country, and progress over time thereof? Criticizing others and sitting back and feeling good about ourselves for doing nothing but at least we're better off (for the moment) than some hypothetic far-off country that exists under different circumstances? > I don't really agree we should be most critical of our own society. We should be critical of the society that deserves the most criticism. I don't really agree that we should focus criticism on where it's unlikely to effect change. Criticism is, at best, a means to an end, and at worst, an attack aimed at others to distract and avoid change ourselves. If we aren't actively working towards that end, our criticism is useless or counterproductive. In the case of a country other than our own, actively working towards that end is unlikely, so the criticism being useless or counterproductive is likely.
- Retric 3y ago
  > How else would you aim your infinite efforts as a citizen of your country? The problem with aiming for utopia is you don’t understand the problems. People in 1100 couldn’t really conceive of an obesity epidemic and the founding fathers didn’t understand the issues with political parties or lifetime nomination to the Supreme Court. Instead you can understand the local situation and aim for something slightly better. Rather than trying to have nationalized healthcare system what if we lower the age for social security eligibility to 60/55 or add kids under 18 etc.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > The problem with aiming for utopia is you don’t understand the problems. I have never found that to be a "problem with aiming for utopia", so maybe it's purely a personal problem with your ability to aim. Achieving something slightly better is possible whether you're aiming for "something slightly better" or something more, so it's not like aiming high affects your ability to achieve low (it definitely doesn't). As for understanding the situation, etc., that all comes with what I was saying before, which is that criticism should be aimed at where it can affect change. If you can't effect change with criticism, the criticism is counterproductive.
    - Retric 3y ago
      Politically revolutions are probably the best example where people fought really hard to improve things wholesale and then ended up with Mow, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. Aiming for Utopia has a terrible track record because we don’t actually know how such societies would function under the hood just superficial details that seem like a good idea. What seems like perfection from far away is often premature optimization. Smaller changes may not work, but they are much easier to roll back. This isn’t simply criticism for criticism’s sake there real lessons to be learned here and concrete steps we can take. See the constitutional amendment banning alcohol and then it’s repeal and then repeating those mistakes with the drug war. etc etc
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        I haven't found any of your claims to be true. Aiming for utopia is how we've achieved literally everything as humans from cavemen to now. Though you're cherry picking the worst of humanity, the best of humanity also came from aiming for utopia. Indeed, all the terrible rulers you mentioned could have been from people not aiming for utopia. Larger aims may not be achievable, but they're how we get smaller changes. There is indeed criticism for criticism's sake (a lot of people use it to distract from improvement efforts). If we stick with that, we'd never have repealed prohibition because people would be worried about, "what if we repealed it the wrong way, we shouldn't aim for a utopia where alcohol prohibition is repealed, we should aim for something smaller, like 1% beer, repealing prohibition is just a utopia we'll never achieve". Welp, turns out aiming for the utopia is how we repealed prohibition. We imagined the world we wanted, and we made a part of it happen, and none of it was due to criticizing other countries. Let's just take as an example, a criticism you have of a different country. You can come up with the example. Just explain how your criticism has lead to making our own country better than it was. Remember: that's the only valid positive use of criticism: improving our reality.

shermantanktop 3y ago

Self-criticism can be a form of narcissism. And any organization (country, company, sports team, etc.) at the top of the heap is especially prone to looking inward already. When the big boss decides to feel bad about what they’ve done to others, they usually end up reinforcing their self-centered viewpoint. I think it’s quite healthy for Americans to realize just how messed up the history of other countries often is, and in different ways than the US.

Retric 3y ago

I get that, but reading up on Pol Pot or just narco states etc and you really appreciate what so many people want(ed) to go to the US. It’s ok to want things to be better even if you don’t think America is horrible. Improvement doesn’t need justification, it is literally it’s own reward.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]