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Isn't this just a case of growing the city? There's plenty of land to build on. Asian cities like Tokyo or Shenzhen don't seem to suffer this problem strangely,

Isn't this just a case of growing the city? There's plenty of land to build on. Asian cities like Tokyo or Shenzhen don't seem to suffer this problem strangely, they just grow and grow and grow as necessary. 100x in 20 years if needed. I live in Lisbon where we have the same problem as lots of cities - cramming everyone into one square mile. Instead of waiting for some magical solution I wish we got to work building some more city to live in.

palemoonale 3y ago
> they just grow and grow and grow as necessary. 100x in 20 years if needed Unless you want to have a livable city, and want nature nearby, yes sure, just grow, and grow, and grow. Btw, Shangaians f.e. want a word with you. Perhaps Lisbon, as many other cities, should impose a limit on newcomers / population and area growth. It would help conditions and feel a lot.
- 0xfaded 3y ago
  Since part of the reason people move to cities is for access to economic opportunity, perhaps it would be better to remove existing residents who do not meet the expected productivity bar and make way for the newcomers. In seriousness though, I do not believe we should shelter existing residents (read homeowners) from the economics they impose on newcomers. Removing tax breaks (Prop 13) would go a long way.
zer00eyz 3y ago
Good point, but neither of those cities are on an island. Also in the case of Tokyo, well its Japanese, the housing is tiny (relatively), and dense. There is also a culture of tear it down and build new, unlike the states. (Japanese housing is interesting in this regard, all value is in land not the home on it) Shenzhen is just sprawling new construction. It will be interesting to see what that looks like in 10 or 50 years. I suspect much of it will be falling apart due low construction standards, low will to maintain standing structures, 100 year lease terms not actual ownership. Us, Japan, China, and your country of Portugal are all facing declines in population (with the US propped up by immigration). Does building more make sense? Is the decline in construction a harbinger of what's to come? It's going to be an interesting few decades.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  The area of the other 4 boroughs is much larger than the island of Manhattan. Manhattan makes up less than 10% of the city area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City NYC is not "on an island" either.
Nevermark 3y ago
Expanding a city on the edges can help, a bit. But the reason people want to be in the city, is what makes it a city: its density. Even if a city has equal density everywhere, the dynamic place where everyone actually goes becomes the place everyone wants to be near. So prices there will go through the roof if it can't be made more dense. There are only two dynamic solutions to the circle of density creating demand for more density. They are best used together: 1) Continuous spacial density growth. 2) Continuous temporal density growth. Keep improving the speed and convenience of movement throughout the city. There is no static, or fixed timescale, solution.
sing_trw 3y ago
It is not. The main reason why you don't think these cities have this problem is because you don't know anyone who lives there. I left Singapore in 2003 because it was getting ridiculously dense. Since then it's only gotten worse. The last time I went back it wasn't the city I knew but a doppelganger with a suspiciously main land Chinese accent.
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  Curiously I picked those cities as examples because I know them quite well and know long-term residents of all three.

palemoonale 3y ago

> they just grow and grow and grow as necessary. 100x in 20 years if needed Unless you want to have a livable city, and want nature nearby, yes sure, just grow, and grow, and grow. Btw, Shangaians f.e. want a word with you. Perhaps Lisbon, as many other cities, should impose a limit on newcomers / population and area growth. It would help conditions and feel a lot.

0xfaded 3y ago
Since part of the reason people move to cities is for access to economic opportunity, perhaps it would be better to remove existing residents who do not meet the expected productivity bar and make way for the newcomers. In seriousness though, I do not believe we should shelter existing residents (read homeowners) from the economics they impose on newcomers. Removing tax breaks (Prop 13) would go a long way.

zer00eyz 3y ago

Good point, but neither of those cities are on an island. Also in the case of Tokyo, well its Japanese, the housing is tiny (relatively), and dense. There is also a culture of tear it down and build new, unlike the states. (Japanese housing is interesting in this regard, all value is in land not the home on it) Shenzhen is just sprawling new construction. It will be interesting to see what that looks like in 10 or 50 years. I suspect much of it will be falling apart due low construction standards, low will to maintain standing structures, 100 year lease terms not actual ownership. Us, Japan, China, and your country of Portugal are all facing declines in population (with the US propped up by immigration). Does building more make sense? Is the decline in construction a harbinger of what's to come? It's going to be an interesting few decades.

drewcoo 3y ago
The area of the other 4 boroughs is much larger than the island of Manhattan. Manhattan makes up less than 10% of the city area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City NYC is not "on an island" either.

Nevermark 3y ago

Expanding a city on the edges can help, a bit. But the reason people want to be in the city, is what makes it a city: its density. Even if a city has equal density everywhere, the dynamic place where everyone actually goes becomes the place everyone wants to be near. So prices there will go through the roof if it can't be made more dense. There are only two dynamic solutions to the circle of density creating demand for more density. They are best used together: 1) Continuous spacial density growth. 2) Continuous temporal density growth. Keep improving the speed and convenience of movement throughout the city. There is no static, or fixed timescale, solution.

sing_trw 3y ago

It is not. The main reason why you don't think these cities have this problem is because you don't know anyone who lives there. I left Singapore in 2003 because it was getting ridiculously dense. Since then it's only gotten worse. The last time I went back it wasn't the city I knew but a doppelganger with a suspiciously main land Chinese accent.

zemvpferreira 3y ago
Curiously I picked those cities as examples because I know them quite well and know long-term residents of all three.