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>hold manufacturers accountable for updates that break otherwise perfectly-functioning hardware Wouldn't the license agreement that you agreed to when you inst

>hold manufacturers accountable for updates that break otherwise perfectly-functioning hardware Wouldn't the license agreement that you agreed to when you installed the software specify any responsibilities of the vendor and define what recourse you might have? Why would government action be needed?

delecti 3y ago
Precisely for that reason. Most license agreements require the end-user to waive any recourse. That's what customer protection laws are for.
ncallaway 3y ago
Because the government has put constraints on what kind of agreements are valid (especially in the domain of sales to consumers). It happens all the time across many domains (look up the Uniform Commercial Code, for more general examples, or laws around vehicle sales). I have less inclination to be involved in business to business transactions, but there’s absolutely a societal debate to be had around what laws and regulations we have on transactions of software. Society runs smoother, with more transactions, and this economic wealth, when consumers can assume a reasonable baseline of behavior that is being regulated by the government. If every purchase and every transaction requires deep due diligence there will be far fewer transactions.
crazygringo 3y ago
Because I have no negotiating power. Every license agreement says there's no recourse, so I can't pick one that does have it. There's a major free-market failure because there's no negotiation over the agreement. There's no representative for consumers pushing back. So that representative needs to be the government. This is the entire reason for consumer protection laws.
- 4death4 3y ago
  There is a negotiation over the agreement. If you don’t agree with an agreement, then buy a different product. Thats how all agreements work. It’s just not very fun to negotiate when there’s a large power imbalance.
  - malfist 3y ago
    Find me a theater projector firmware/software that doesn't have an EULA. Go on, I'll wait.
  - phartenfeller 3y ago
    Same logic as why you need worker/renter rights, just find another employer/apartment. Sorry that the toaster shocked your wife, but you could have just gotten a different one with better safety standards. It is great that the government protects consumers. Otherwise, everyone would need to spend hours researching everything before making a rare purchase.
    - hypeatei 3y ago
      You're conflating human rights and safety issues with broken projector software which seems disingenuous. > Otherwise, everyone would need to spend hours researching everything before making a rare purchase On this issue specifically, these projectors seem to be in the tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of dollars so some research and due diligence doesn't seem that far fetched.
  - Adverblessly 3y ago
    > It’s just not very fun to negotiate when there’s a large power imbalance. Indeed, which is why people may choose to band together in a bigger bargaining block to improve their position and possibly even achieve greater power than the other party. For example, they could choose to form a single block that represents the citizens of an entire country.
    - 4death4 3y ago
      That seems like the opposite of the original comment, which was a desire to negotiate on an individual level.
Levitz 3y ago
Because government action is consumer action. The government is not some foreign third actor, we live in a democratic society and as such, the way in which we do things is subjected to the desires of the public. If enough people consider the government should intervene, then the government should intervene.

delecti 3y ago

Precisely for that reason. Most license agreements require the end-user to waive any recourse. That's what customer protection laws are for.

ncallaway 3y ago

Because the government has put constraints on what kind of agreements are valid (especially in the domain of sales to consumers). It happens all the time across many domains (look up the Uniform Commercial Code, for more general examples, or laws around vehicle sales). I have less inclination to be involved in business to business transactions, but there’s absolutely a societal debate to be had around what laws and regulations we have on transactions of software. Society runs smoother, with more transactions, and this economic wealth, when consumers can assume a reasonable baseline of behavior that is being regulated by the government. If every purchase and every transaction requires deep due diligence there will be far fewer transactions.

crazygringo 3y ago

Because I have no negotiating power. Every license agreement says there's no recourse, so I can't pick one that does have it. There's a major free-market failure because there's no negotiation over the agreement. There's no representative for consumers pushing back. So that representative needs to be the government. This is the entire reason for consumer protection laws.

4death4 3y ago
There is a negotiation over the agreement. If you don’t agree with an agreement, then buy a different product. Thats how all agreements work. It’s just not very fun to negotiate when there’s a large power imbalance.
- malfist 3y ago
  Find me a theater projector firmware/software that doesn't have an EULA. Go on, I'll wait.
- phartenfeller 3y ago
  Same logic as why you need worker/renter rights, just find another employer/apartment. Sorry that the toaster shocked your wife, but you could have just gotten a different one with better safety standards. It is great that the government protects consumers. Otherwise, everyone would need to spend hours researching everything before making a rare purchase.
  - hypeatei 3y ago
    You're conflating human rights and safety issues with broken projector software which seems disingenuous. > Otherwise, everyone would need to spend hours researching everything before making a rare purchase On this issue specifically, these projectors seem to be in the tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of dollars so some research and due diligence doesn't seem that far fetched.
- Adverblessly 3y ago
  > It’s just not very fun to negotiate when there’s a large power imbalance. Indeed, which is why people may choose to band together in a bigger bargaining block to improve their position and possibly even achieve greater power than the other party. For example, they could choose to form a single block that represents the citizens of an entire country.
  - 4death4 3y ago
    That seems like the opposite of the original comment, which was a desire to negotiate on an individual level.

Levitz 3y ago

Because government action is consumer action. The government is not some foreign third actor, we live in a democratic society and as such, the way in which we do things is subjected to the desires of the public. If enough people consider the government should intervene, then the government should intervene.