5 ms·

> Anyway, I would suggest you to research the anti-American movements all over the world and you will see that Americans(the state) are actually treated as evil

by edanm 3y ago

> Anyway, I would suggest you to research the anti-American movements all over the world and you will see that Americans(the state) are actually treated as evil by many people who are affected by the American atrocities or sympathetic with those affected. Americans lost most of their credibility even in UK and Europe. I'm well aware. And for sure much of the Muslim world hates the US as much as Israel ("Big Satan to Israel's Little Satan"). That said, mass demonstrations against Israel started on October 7th, before any Israeli response, and while invaders were still within Israel. In Western countries. Can you imagine anything like that happening on September 11th? > It's really a sad situation because there's a lot to admire about Israel and its people. They were able to build a progressive and prosperous society in a desert but unfortunately turned into genocidal oppressors. I think it's a sad situation because so many people are dying. This would've been just as sad if Israel hadn't done much. The said, I highly disagree with your characterization of Israel as "genocidal". That's just not true. There is no intention to cause a genocide against the Palestinians. > You should be able to draw conclusions from your experience of a single attack that took lives of thousands Israeli and extrapolate to what those people are going through over the years and this latest fight and think about what will want to do to you and what they think about you. I think it is incredibly sad to think that Palestinians cannot find a way to live in peace, or that Israelis can't. Somehow Germany and Japan suffered far worse in WW2 but this didn't cause an endless cycle of violence against the Allies. Why can't the same be true here? As for what I want to do to "them" - if you mean Hamas, I'd want to take apart the organization. If we can capture every single member of Hamas, I'd be all for it. If not, we need to kill as many of them as we have to to stop the organization. If we could do that without a single innocent Gazan dying, we should. No war can be conducted in this way though, and Hamas is making that even harder to do by embedding themselves in civilian areas. I sure as hell don't want any "revenge" that comes at the cost of innocent Gazans, and neither do most people. Btw, you call this a "single attack". It wasn't, it was an invasion that lasted two days, and a bombing campaign that is ongoing for three months. Including the daily worry of other countries joining and attacking Israel.

mrtksn 3y ago
[flagged]
- edanm 3y ago
  > Anyway, %50 women and children causality rate on top of illegal occupation and other atrocities wouldn't convince anyone about it being a "collateral damage". Gaza isn't occupied any longer, or at least, not in the traditional sense. Israel left Gaza in 2005. As for the casualty rate - just look at the casualty rate in e.g. the Iraq war. Every civilian death is tragic, but war really does involve a lot of collateral damage - all the more so when groups like Hamas purposefully try to get civilians killed. > How would you feel if Hamas claimed that all the civilians were a collateral damage? After all they documented the extermination of Israeli soldiers and if there are documented intentional killings of the civilians they can just say it was some bad Apples among them. I would say they are lying, because there are many videos, uploaded by them!, of them targetting civilians. And not just killing them, brutalizing them and massacring them. Btw, killing soldiers is also illegal if they are not in a position to fight you. Invading a base and capturing it is a legitimate military tactic. Executing all soldiers in it even if they have no weapons or have surrendered is a war crime. > I'm sure we can also find some videos of Israeli people saying really bad things about exterminating all the Palestinians. IIRC, there were officials calling to drop an Atomic bomb on Palestine and kill them all and other officials calling for mass extermination. Don't you have a far right government? Yes, some Israeli say bad things, especially in a time of war. And some fringe members of our government have said horrible things and are rightfully condemned. If the government acted the way some members of the government would want it to act - I'd be completely against it and would consider it immoral. Luckily for both sides, these are fringe views (though not fringe enough). > Can you put yourself in the shoes of your opponent? Hamas are horrible but Israeli are no better unfortunately I can put myself in the shoes of my opponent. But comparing Hamas to the IDF is just wrong. The IDF doesn't target civilians, and would definitely never brutally massacre, rape and torture civilians. > It's fascinating that you can claim with straight face to be the good guys with over %50 civilian kill rate in the prison you created. Very unfortunate, another blow for the ideals of the "civilised world". Once again a well educated, technologically advanced nation conducting unspeakable horrors and claim that they are victims and are the good ones. I don't think we're the "good guys" - and I think that's a really simplistic way of thinking about things. I think Israel has a lot to answer for by not advancing peace for the last 15 years, for example. But I also think that given what happened on October 7th, Israel didn't have any choice but to do what it's doing, and doesn't have any chance now - the only way to get safety for Israel and eventually a peace in place is by destroying Hamas. You just can't live next to a government that loudly proclaims it is intent on killing your citizens, and carries this out! > Hamas or any Islamic terrorism with political or religious goals is horrible enough and you are asking us to accept more killing with a bit different political and religious goals. Israel's goals in this war are to destroy Hamas to make us safe. Period. That's the goal and it's a completely legitimate goal, much as Ukraine is fighting off Russia for legitimate reasons.

by edanm 3y ago

mrtksn 3y ago

[flagged]

edanm 3y ago
> Anyway, %50 women and children causality rate on top of illegal occupation and other atrocities wouldn't convince anyone about it being a "collateral damage". Gaza isn't occupied any longer, or at least, not in the traditional sense. Israel left Gaza in 2005. As for the casualty rate - just look at the casualty rate in e.g. the Iraq war. Every civilian death is tragic, but war really does involve a lot of collateral damage - all the more so when groups like Hamas purposefully try to get civilians killed. > How would you feel if Hamas claimed that all the civilians were a collateral damage? After all they documented the extermination of Israeli soldiers and if there are documented intentional killings of the civilians they can just say it was some bad Apples among them. I would say they are lying, because there are many videos, uploaded by them!, of them targetting civilians. And not just killing them, brutalizing them and massacring them. Btw, killing soldiers is also illegal if they are not in a position to fight you. Invading a base and capturing it is a legitimate military tactic. Executing all soldiers in it even if they have no weapons or have surrendered is a war crime. > I'm sure we can also find some videos of Israeli people saying really bad things about exterminating all the Palestinians. IIRC, there were officials calling to drop an Atomic bomb on Palestine and kill them all and other officials calling for mass extermination. Don't you have a far right government? Yes, some Israeli say bad things, especially in a time of war. And some fringe members of our government have said horrible things and are rightfully condemned. If the government acted the way some members of the government would want it to act - I'd be completely against it and would consider it immoral. Luckily for both sides, these are fringe views (though not fringe enough). > Can you put yourself in the shoes of your opponent? Hamas are horrible but Israeli are no better unfortunately I can put myself in the shoes of my opponent. But comparing Hamas to the IDF is just wrong. The IDF doesn't target civilians, and would definitely never brutally massacre, rape and torture civilians. > It's fascinating that you can claim with straight face to be the good guys with over %50 civilian kill rate in the prison you created. Very unfortunate, another blow for the ideals of the "civilised world". Once again a well educated, technologically advanced nation conducting unspeakable horrors and claim that they are victims and are the good ones. I don't think we're the "good guys" - and I think that's a really simplistic way of thinking about things. I think Israel has a lot to answer for by not advancing peace for the last 15 years, for example. But I also think that given what happened on October 7th, Israel didn't have any choice but to do what it's doing, and doesn't have any chance now - the only way to get safety for Israel and eventually a peace in place is by destroying Hamas. You just can't live next to a government that loudly proclaims it is intent on killing your citizens, and carries this out! > Hamas or any Islamic terrorism with political or religious goals is horrible enough and you are asking us to accept more killing with a bit different political and religious goals. Israel's goals in this war are to destroy Hamas to make us safe. Period. That's the goal and it's a completely legitimate goal, much as Ukraine is fighting off Russia for legitimate reasons.