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The difference I'm referring to is "requires" vs "ships with". As to whether a requirement is typical or not, I am frustrated by local maximum thinking. If you

The difference I'm referring to is "requires" vs "ships with". As to whether a requirement is typical or not, I am frustrated by local maximum thinking. If your tooling cannot build an ambitious project, then you're not going to build an ambitious project. I actively try to spend my finite time on ambitious projects in general. You don't need LiveView or StimulusReflex to build a landing page, that's true. But if you're building an ambitious real-time web app, the range of complexity where it makes sense to use HTMX instead of a full-stack solution gets smaller very quickly.

listenallyall 3y ago
I think you're either misguided, or just a hater. HTMX can accommodate ambitious, real-time web apps. Its entire purpose is to make interacting with a server (that single source of truth) easy, fast and transparent, as if doing so was simply built in to the HTML spec. What it can't do, is calculate the shape of a bezier curve, and that's why it's not a good choice for building an app like Figma.
- peteforde 3y ago
  I definitely do not like HTMX, that much is true. Does that make me a hater? I'm reading what you're saying, and it's very clear that you do not understand what frameworks like StimulusReflex and LiveView do for you. There is no fair comparison between HTMX and frameworks that ship with a server-side infrastructure for maintaining a long-lived, persistent connection. I won't mock you if you set aside your assumptions, investigate and have a moment of illumination.
  - listenallyall 3y ago
    How is it clear that I don't understand those frameworks when I haven't said a word about them? I've commented exclusively on HTMX and its use cases, you're the only one making comparisons.
    - peteforde 3y ago
      It's because you keep implying HTMX is a good choice, when there are vastly more powerful solutions in play. I know a guy who still insists that MS Access is the best database tool. His identity is fully wrapped up in this being true.
      - listenallyall 3y ago
        You have very poor reading comprehension. I never claimed HTMX was "the best." But yes, HTMX is a fantastic tool (and language agnostic), and the existence of other frameworks does not diminish its utility. If your only argument is to compare it to 30-year old Access/Jet, you're simply exposing your own lack of credibility and inherent irrelevance.
        peteforde 3y ago
        Serious question: are you wickedly combative in all discussions, or just when you get the cold feeling that perhaps you might not know as much as you think you do? If you look through the progressive responses you've given, you resort less to actual technical points and more to personal attacks. It's weird. When you stop rage replying and take an honest look at how LiveView or StimulusReflex work - for you actually can build the next Figma with them - you'll see that the comparison between Access and a modern database is pretty apt. I'm specifically talking about a dramatically higher ceiling of possibility in terms of the problems that you can solve. If you'd rather exhaust yourself trying to make personal attacks than level up your current local maximum perspective, there's really nothing else I can tell you.
        listenallyall 3y ago
        Oh jeez, quit with the self-righteousness, each of your comments contains some passive-aggressive dig (HTMX = Access, HTMX is for "a landing page", I need "illumination"). You haven't stated a single "actual technical point" either. Let it go.
        3y ago

listenallyall 3y ago

I think you're either misguided, or just a hater. HTMX can accommodate ambitious, real-time web apps. Its entire purpose is to make interacting with a server (that single source of truth) easy, fast and transparent, as if doing so was simply built in to the HTML spec. What it can't do, is calculate the shape of a bezier curve, and that's why it's not a good choice for building an app like Figma.

peteforde 3y ago
I definitely do not like HTMX, that much is true. Does that make me a hater? I'm reading what you're saying, and it's very clear that you do not understand what frameworks like StimulusReflex and LiveView do for you. There is no fair comparison between HTMX and frameworks that ship with a server-side infrastructure for maintaining a long-lived, persistent connection. I won't mock you if you set aside your assumptions, investigate and have a moment of illumination.
- listenallyall 3y ago
  How is it clear that I don't understand those frameworks when I haven't said a word about them? I've commented exclusively on HTMX and its use cases, you're the only one making comparisons.
  - peteforde 3y ago
    It's because you keep implying HTMX is a good choice, when there are vastly more powerful solutions in play. I know a guy who still insists that MS Access is the best database tool. His identity is fully wrapped up in this being true.
    - listenallyall 3y ago
      You have very poor reading comprehension. I never claimed HTMX was "the best." But yes, HTMX is a fantastic tool (and language agnostic), and the existence of other frameworks does not diminish its utility. If your only argument is to compare it to 30-year old Access/Jet, you're simply exposing your own lack of credibility and inherent irrelevance.
      - peteforde 3y ago
        Serious question: are you wickedly combative in all discussions, or just when you get the cold feeling that perhaps you might not know as much as you think you do? If you look through the progressive responses you've given, you resort less to actual technical points and more to personal attacks. It's weird. When you stop rage replying and take an honest look at how LiveView or StimulusReflex work - for you actually can build the next Figma with them - you'll see that the comparison between Access and a modern database is pretty apt. I'm specifically talking about a dramatically higher ceiling of possibility in terms of the problems that you can solve. If you'd rather exhaust yourself trying to make personal attacks than level up your current local maximum perspective, there's really nothing else I can tell you.
        listenallyall 3y ago
        Oh jeez, quit with the self-righteousness, each of your comments contains some passive-aggressive dig (HTMX = Access, HTMX is for "a landing page", I need "illumination"). You haven't stated a single "actual technical point" either. Let it go.
        3y ago