5 ms·

Solution: tune it right out of the shop and never bring it to your dealer for scheduled maintenance. Would love to finally see the hacking community pay some at

by pluc 3y ago

Solution: tune it right out of the shop and never bring it to your dealer for scheduled maintenance. Would love to finally see the hacking community pay some attention to infotainment systems. Cars are becoming like PCs or phones, pre-bundled with a bunch of shit that you'd want to selectively purge upon acquisition but somehow car manufacturers don't have to give you the option.

jncfhnb 3y ago
Cars are too expensive to mess with if you’re rights to do so are not protected and risk warranties
- anonym29 3y ago
  For DIY efforts, sure. Blatantly untrue for commercial modification though. There is no shortage of performance shops that will take a car that makes a couple hundred HP from the factory, replace a bunch of internals, completely void the warranty, and bump it up to the 4-digit range of horsepower, albeit mostly with a small handful of the overall number of makes and models, as not all cars are good platforms for high performance. I suspect the reason that we don't see much of a commercial privacy modding scene for cars is that there simply isn't sufficient demand. The manufacturers may be educated, listening, and watching us, but most people would simply prefer to bury their heads in the sand and choose to act ignorant, deaf, and blind in the face of this problem. It's almost like non-technical folks have developed a "learned hopelessness" over their privacy, which is really sad in some ways. That's the same thing people living under many brutal, murderous, totalitarian dictatorships developed too after their privacy was obliterated, like in the former Soviet Union.
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Completely voiding the warranty is the problem, not the cost of the mods.
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    You're living in a fantasy world if you think a 200 HP car is going to make 1000+ HP with a few modifications. The people doing this have a factory engine block and that is it.
    - Tanoc 3y ago
      They can, very easily. Nissan's L28, Toyota's 1JZ and 2JZ, and Ford's own modular 4.6 are all well known for such raucous stupidity. If you really want to you can even make GM's Quad 4 push 900HP, as evidenced in the Oldsmobile Aerotech. Boost pressure can make a ton of difference.
    - anonym29 3y ago
      How did you translate "replace a bunch of internals" to "with a few modifications"? The guys doing "a few mods" are not the same guys "replacing a bunch of internals". Besides, I wasn't really talking about a typical family car, but rather a handful of platforms like stuff with LS-family, Coyote blocks, R35's, Mk4 Supras, etc. There's variability even between those, but a gen 2 coyote motor will easily take 900+ crank on the stock internals, just need to swap oil pump gear and crank sprocket gear and something to make that power (turbos/supercharger/nitrous/etc). Swap some lower rotating assembly stuff and you're well into the 1XXX range with sufficient boost. Also, some of the people I'm thinking of are most certainly NOT usng factory engine blocks, but rather aftermarket blocks. Factory blocks are mostly cast aluminum trash, with a few exceptions.
  - pluc 3y ago
    I think you need to give it a bit more time - that whole thing is really just from this year. I know I'd be a client
    - anonym29 3y ago
      We're the exception, not the norm, unfortunately. A vast supermajority of people in the West seem to have absolutely no qualms about having an always-on, always-recording device next to them 24/7 that reports pretty much everything they're thinking to multiple companies that have a lengthy history of voluntarily cooperating with their own shady government, other shady foreign governments, etc. Which sounds completely insane to me, and maybe you too. Remember the words of former head of the NSA, Michael Hayden, "The U.S. government kills people based on metadata".
- pluc 3y ago
  For sure, it's an expensive gamble. For me, I took my car from the dealer to the tuner on day 1. We actually found some factory issues like turbo hoses disconnected. Then I replaced a few parts for compatibility and performance and tuned it Stage II. That was 6 years ago and car still runs A1 (and I drive it like I stole it). Never brought it in for servicing.
teeray 3y ago
My dad is a car guy from way back, and laments today where “the computer fails in a new car and that’s it.” Entirely true. What he doesn’t see is the wonderful counterbalance we’ve had with open source in traditional computing against this proprietary nightmare hell now plaguing cars. I’ve tried to tell him that a computer in the car should be a diagnostic asset, completely usable with open source tools. Imagine seeing the timing and dwell on an old car in curves on the screen rather than using a timing light (as delightful an analog solution that is) and dwell meter. Instead, computers have been used by auto manufacturers as a lock in tool—“check engine,” bring to dealer.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > counterbalance we’ve had with open source in traditional computing Created by massive activism, unpaid labour of millions of passionate people who otherwise are very expensive and have a very well paying job. This is not a practical and sustainable solution for most things. In fact it does not work at in when we have to deal with embedded software even in something as simple and cheap as a phone, TV or a smart coffee machine, let alone a car. We need a bigger stick, legislative solution with serious criminal sanctions. Misusing user's data should be treated like a bank misusing customer money - serious business that must be audited.
gonzo41 3y ago
Imagine bricking a Tesla with a shitty jail break from the internet. 99.99% of owners will not do that. Hell I don't even mess with the speed controller on my ebike. If there were standards that auto's had to adhere to then maybe. but until then messing with engine management on computerized cars is going to be a no go. Especially if you f--k things up and put yourself or others in mortal danger.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > speed controller on my ebike Bafang? Got a nice programming cable, always adjust throttle behaviour and soft start.
  - gonzo41 3y ago
    It's a bosch cx performance line motor. :(
RunningDroid 3y ago
> Would love to finally see the hacking community pay some attention to infotainment systems. There are a handful of open source headunit projects, I think PILOT Drive* is the most interesting even though it seems to be fairly recent *: https://hackaday.io/project/191356-pilot-drive-an-open-source-headunit https://hackaday.io/project/191356-pilot-drive-an-open-sourc...
anonym29 3y ago
Removing the SIM card or a specific fuse from the car is a strategy that has worked well for me. On a lot of these "connected" cars, they use a pretty ordinary cellular data connection. Break that connection and you break the data leak. Bonus points for spoofing GPS to show the car in Antarctica or something like that, so that the trustworthiness in the accuracy of the entire dataset (and thus the commercial value) goes down, instead of just you choosing to opt out.
- autothrowaway11 3y ago
  Without saying too much; don't expect that to work forever. A requirement for the car to call home is in development, just still a lot of debate on what the consequences are if the car can't reach reach the home server.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Probably spills upon connecting a cable at the dealer.
  - anonym29 3y ago
    If you're concerned with privacy, you probably shouldn't have the same corporation that built the spying apparatus have unsupervised physical access to the car. Supporting small independent mechanics + right to repair is supporting your ability to protect your own privacy too!
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Best not to have the offending hardware in the first place.
      - anonym29 3y ago
        Right, which is why I'm a fan of removing SIM cards and fuses. Wonder if it's possible to remove "black box" logging systems without rendering the car in question inoperable. My guess is that even if it is possible now, it won't be for much longer. Freedom, privacy, and full ownership/control are three concepts that are becoming increasingly foreign to young people, it's quite sad.

by pluc 3y ago

jncfhnb 3y ago

Cars are too expensive to mess with if you’re rights to do so are not protected and risk warranties

anonym29 3y ago
For DIY efforts, sure. Blatantly untrue for commercial modification though. There is no shortage of performance shops that will take a car that makes a couple hundred HP from the factory, replace a bunch of internals, completely void the warranty, and bump it up to the 4-digit range of horsepower, albeit mostly with a small handful of the overall number of makes and models, as not all cars are good platforms for high performance. I suspect the reason that we don't see much of a commercial privacy modding scene for cars is that there simply isn't sufficient demand. The manufacturers may be educated, listening, and watching us, but most people would simply prefer to bury their heads in the sand and choose to act ignorant, deaf, and blind in the face of this problem. It's almost like non-technical folks have developed a "learned hopelessness" over their privacy, which is really sad in some ways. That's the same thing people living under many brutal, murderous, totalitarian dictatorships developed too after their privacy was obliterated, like in the former Soviet Union.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Completely voiding the warranty is the problem, not the cost of the mods.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  You're living in a fantasy world if you think a 200 HP car is going to make 1000+ HP with a few modifications. The people doing this have a factory engine block and that is it.
  - Tanoc 3y ago
    They can, very easily. Nissan's L28, Toyota's 1JZ and 2JZ, and Ford's own modular 4.6 are all well known for such raucous stupidity. If you really want to you can even make GM's Quad 4 push 900HP, as evidenced in the Oldsmobile Aerotech. Boost pressure can make a ton of difference.
  - anonym29 3y ago
    How did you translate "replace a bunch of internals" to "with a few modifications"? The guys doing "a few mods" are not the same guys "replacing a bunch of internals". Besides, I wasn't really talking about a typical family car, but rather a handful of platforms like stuff with LS-family, Coyote blocks, R35's, Mk4 Supras, etc. There's variability even between those, but a gen 2 coyote motor will easily take 900+ crank on the stock internals, just need to swap oil pump gear and crank sprocket gear and something to make that power (turbos/supercharger/nitrous/etc). Swap some lower rotating assembly stuff and you're well into the 1XXX range with sufficient boost. Also, some of the people I'm thinking of are most certainly NOT usng factory engine blocks, but rather aftermarket blocks. Factory blocks are mostly cast aluminum trash, with a few exceptions.
- pluc 3y ago
  I think you need to give it a bit more time - that whole thing is really just from this year. I know I'd be a client
  - anonym29 3y ago
    We're the exception, not the norm, unfortunately. A vast supermajority of people in the West seem to have absolutely no qualms about having an always-on, always-recording device next to them 24/7 that reports pretty much everything they're thinking to multiple companies that have a lengthy history of voluntarily cooperating with their own shady government, other shady foreign governments, etc. Which sounds completely insane to me, and maybe you too. Remember the words of former head of the NSA, Michael Hayden, "The U.S. government kills people based on metadata".
pluc 3y ago
For sure, it's an expensive gamble. For me, I took my car from the dealer to the tuner on day 1. We actually found some factory issues like turbo hoses disconnected. Then I replaced a few parts for compatibility and performance and tuned it Stage II. That was 6 years ago and car still runs A1 (and I drive it like I stole it). Never brought it in for servicing.

teeray 3y ago

My dad is a car guy from way back, and laments today where “the computer fails in a new car and that’s it.” Entirely true. What he doesn’t see is the wonderful counterbalance we’ve had with open source in traditional computing against this proprietary nightmare hell now plaguing cars. I’ve tried to tell him that a computer in the car should be a diagnostic asset, completely usable with open source tools. Imagine seeing the timing and dwell on an old car in curves on the screen rather than using a timing light (as delightful an analog solution that is) and dwell meter. Instead, computers have been used by auto manufacturers as a lock in tool—“check engine,” bring to dealer.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> counterbalance we’ve had with open source in traditional computing Created by massive activism, unpaid labour of millions of passionate people who otherwise are very expensive and have a very well paying job. This is not a practical and sustainable solution for most things. In fact it does not work at in when we have to deal with embedded software even in something as simple and cheap as a phone, TV or a smart coffee machine, let alone a car. We need a bigger stick, legislative solution with serious criminal sanctions. Misusing user's data should be treated like a bank misusing customer money - serious business that must be audited.

gonzo41 3y ago

Imagine bricking a Tesla with a shitty jail break from the internet. 99.99% of owners will not do that. Hell I don't even mess with the speed controller on my ebike. If there were standards that auto's had to adhere to then maybe. but until then messing with engine management on computerized cars is going to be a no go. Especially if you f--k things up and put yourself or others in mortal danger.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> speed controller on my ebike Bafang? Got a nice programming cable, always adjust throttle behaviour and soft start.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  It's a bosch cx performance line motor. :(

RunningDroid 3y ago

> Would love to finally see the hacking community pay some attention to infotainment systems. There are a handful of open source headunit projects, I think PILOT Drive* is the most interesting even though it seems to be fairly recent *: https://hackaday.io/project/191356-pilot-drive-an-open-source-headunit https://hackaday.io/project/191356-pilot-drive-an-open-sourc...

anonym29 3y ago

Removing the SIM card or a specific fuse from the car is a strategy that has worked well for me. On a lot of these "connected" cars, they use a pretty ordinary cellular data connection. Break that connection and you break the data leak. Bonus points for spoofing GPS to show the car in Antarctica or something like that, so that the trustworthiness in the accuracy of the entire dataset (and thus the commercial value) goes down, instead of just you choosing to opt out.

autothrowaway11 3y ago
Without saying too much; don't expect that to work forever. A requirement for the car to call home is in development, just still a lot of debate on what the consequences are if the car can't reach reach the home server.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Probably spills upon connecting a cable at the dealer.
- anonym29 3y ago
  If you're concerned with privacy, you probably shouldn't have the same corporation that built the spying apparatus have unsupervised physical access to the car. Supporting small independent mechanics + right to repair is supporting your ability to protect your own privacy too!
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Best not to have the offending hardware in the first place.
    - anonym29 3y ago
      Right, which is why I'm a fan of removing SIM cards and fuses. Wonder if it's possible to remove "black box" logging systems without rendering the car in question inoperable. My guess is that even if it is possible now, it won't be for much longer. Freedom, privacy, and full ownership/control are three concepts that are becoming increasingly foreign to young people, it's quite sad.