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> maybe the crowd that uses Emacs is mostly also the crowd that would be against utilizing LLMs? I think a bigger problem is that the crowd that uses emacs is

by jefftk 3y ago

> maybe the crowd that uses Emacs is mostly also the crowd that would be against utilizing LLMs? I think a bigger problem is that the crowd that uses emacs is just small. Less than 5% of developers use it, and fewer than that use it as their primary IDE: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technologies-new-collab-tools https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technolog... (I'm quite sad about this, as someone who pretty much only uses emacs)

safety1st 3y ago
I'm an emacs believer (the idea of a programmer's text editor really just being a lisp environment makes a ton of sense), but I'm a very part-time user. There are just so many idiosyncracies that make it hard to get into. No one seems to drink their own kool-aid more fervently than the emacs community, it just feels like "this would make it easier for new users" is never allowed to be a design rationale for anything. For me things started to get easier once I discovered cua-mode and xclip-mode. I have read some arguments about why these aren't the default, I think those arguments are sensible if you have a PhD in emacs, but for the other 99.99% of humanity they are just big signs that say "go away." It's very silly to me that the defaults haven't evolved and become more usable - the definition of being a power user is that you can and do override lots of defaults anyway, so the defaults should be designed to support new users, not the veterans.
- jart 3y ago
  That's because learning how to use Emacs is basically the equivalent of Navy Seals training except for programmers. For Emacs believers, that's a feature, not a bug. The good news is that llamafile is designed to be easy and inclusive for everyone. Emacs users are just one of the many groups I hope will enjoy and benefit from the project.
- G3rn0ti 3y ago
  > I think those arguments are sensible if you have a PhD in emacs. To get that PhD just start reading „Mastering Emacs“ by Mickey Peterson: https://www.masteringemacs.org https://www.masteringemacs.org Many people try learning by doing Emacs and it’s not a bad approach. However, I believe learning the fundamental „theory of editing“ will help you quite a lot to grasp this tool’s inherent complexity much faster. And it’s a fun read, I think.
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago
  Warning: This turned into a pretty long response somehow Doesn't cua mode kind of break the keybindings of emacs? For instance I use: - C-c C-c - C-c C-e Maybe those get moved to some other prefix? Also I get the argument that C-v in emacs for paste would be nice, but doesn't that make it harder for you to discover yank-pop aka C-y M-y? The problem to me it seems with using cua-mode medium or long term is not thinking in the system and patterns of emacs. I assume if one doesn't want to learn different copy paste commands, they also probably don't want to read emacs high quality info manuals which impart deep understanding well. EDIT: I found a good discussion on this. Question: > CUA mode is very close to the workflow I am used to outside Emacs, so I am tempted to activate it. > But I have learned that Emacs may have useful gems hidden in its ways, and CUA mode seems something that was attached later on. Parts of response: > In short, what you “lose” is the added complexity to the key use. Following is more detailed explanation. > Emacs C-x is prefix key for general commands, and C-c is prefix key of current major mode's commands. > CUA mode uses C-x for cut and C-c for copy. In order to avoid conflict, cua uses some tricks. Specifically, when there's text selection (that is, region active), then these keys acts as cut and copy. > But, sometimes emacs commands work differently depending on whether there's a text selection. For example, comment-dwim will act on a text selection if there's one, else just current line. (when you have transient-mark-mode on.) This is a very nice feature introduced since emacs 23 (in year 2009). It means, for many commands, you don't have to first make a selection. full response: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/26878 https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/26878 I suppose it all hinges upon your response to reading this: > CUA mode is very close to the workflow I am used to outside Emacs, My response: Workflow outside of emacs?! How can we fix that? Outside of emacs I'm in danger of hearing "you have no power here!". Typical response: Why can't emacs be more like other programs so I can more easily use it from time to time?
- shrimpx 3y ago
  `xclip-mode` looks like it should definitely be included by default. `cua-mode` is tougher because it messes with the default keybindings, making you type C-x twice (or Shift-C-x) for the large number of keybindings that start with C-x. That might be better for newcomers though, and bring more people to Emacs. Personally I would disable `cua-mode` if it were default.
layer8 3y ago
4.5% of all developers isn’t small in absolute terms. And diversity is a good thing.
- weebull 3y ago
  ...which is why the 75% using VS code is a bad thing.
- jefftk 3y ago
  I'm not saying emacs has a low number of users to dunk on emacs: it's my primary editor! I was responding to: > It's somewhat surprising that there isn't more development happening in integrating Large Language Models with Emacs
  - layer8 3y ago
    I’m a Vim user, so that wasn’t why I replied. It was your saying that it saddens you that Emacs doesn’t have many users.

by jefftk 3y ago

safety1st 3y ago

I'm an emacs believer (the idea of a programmer's text editor really just being a lisp environment makes a ton of sense), but I'm a very part-time user. There are just so many idiosyncracies that make it hard to get into. No one seems to drink their own kool-aid more fervently than the emacs community, it just feels like "this would make it easier for new users" is never allowed to be a design rationale for anything. For me things started to get easier once I discovered cua-mode and xclip-mode. I have read some arguments about why these aren't the default, I think those arguments are sensible if you have a PhD in emacs, but for the other 99.99% of humanity they are just big signs that say "go away." It's very silly to me that the defaults haven't evolved and become more usable - the definition of being a power user is that you can and do override lots of defaults anyway, so the defaults should be designed to support new users, not the veterans.

jart 3y ago
That's because learning how to use Emacs is basically the equivalent of Navy Seals training except for programmers. For Emacs believers, that's a feature, not a bug. The good news is that llamafile is designed to be easy and inclusive for everyone. Emacs users are just one of the many groups I hope will enjoy and benefit from the project.
G3rn0ti 3y ago
> I think those arguments are sensible if you have a PhD in emacs. To get that PhD just start reading „Mastering Emacs“ by Mickey Peterson: https://www.masteringemacs.org https://www.masteringemacs.org Many people try learning by doing Emacs and it’s not a bad approach. However, I believe learning the fundamental „theory of editing“ will help you quite a lot to grasp this tool’s inherent complexity much faster. And it’s a fun read, I think.
ParetoOptimal 3y ago
Warning: This turned into a pretty long response somehow Doesn't cua mode kind of break the keybindings of emacs? For instance I use: - C-c C-c - C-c C-e Maybe those get moved to some other prefix? Also I get the argument that C-v in emacs for paste would be nice, but doesn't that make it harder for you to discover yank-pop aka C-y M-y? The problem to me it seems with using cua-mode medium or long term is not thinking in the system and patterns of emacs. I assume if one doesn't want to learn different copy paste commands, they also probably don't want to read emacs high quality info manuals which impart deep understanding well. EDIT: I found a good discussion on this. Question: > CUA mode is very close to the workflow I am used to outside Emacs, so I am tempted to activate it. > But I have learned that Emacs may have useful gems hidden in its ways, and CUA mode seems something that was attached later on. Parts of response: > In short, what you “lose” is the added complexity to the key use. Following is more detailed explanation. > Emacs C-x is prefix key for general commands, and C-c is prefix key of current major mode's commands. > CUA mode uses C-x for cut and C-c for copy. In order to avoid conflict, cua uses some tricks. Specifically, when there's text selection (that is, region active), then these keys acts as cut and copy. > But, sometimes emacs commands work differently depending on whether there's a text selection. For example, comment-dwim will act on a text selection if there's one, else just current line. (when you have transient-mark-mode on.) This is a very nice feature introduced since emacs 23 (in year 2009). It means, for many commands, you don't have to first make a selection. full response: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/26878 https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/26878 I suppose it all hinges upon your response to reading this: > CUA mode is very close to the workflow I am used to outside Emacs, My response: Workflow outside of emacs?! How can we fix that? Outside of emacs I'm in danger of hearing "you have no power here!". Typical response: Why can't emacs be more like other programs so I can more easily use it from time to time?
shrimpx 3y ago
`xclip-mode` looks like it should definitely be included by default. `cua-mode` is tougher because it messes with the default keybindings, making you type C-x twice (or Shift-C-x) for the large number of keybindings that start with C-x. That might be better for newcomers though, and bring more people to Emacs. Personally I would disable `cua-mode` if it were default.

layer8 3y ago

4.5% of all developers isn’t small in absolute terms. And diversity is a good thing.

weebull 3y ago
...which is why the 75% using VS code is a bad thing.
jefftk 3y ago
I'm not saying emacs has a low number of users to dunk on emacs: it's my primary editor! I was responding to: > It's somewhat surprising that there isn't more development happening in integrating Large Language Models with Emacs
- layer8 3y ago
  I’m a Vim user, so that wasn’t why I replied. It was your saying that it saddens you that Emacs doesn’t have many users.