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and for anyone that actually believed companies cared about those things when they said them, I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell you.

by ejb999 3y ago

concordDance 3y ago
A company is controlled by people. If those people care about those things (and aren't in a system that pressurises them not to or selects for people who do) then the "company" will also care about those things.
- 1letterunixname 3y ago
  If the company is controlled by distant, diffuse, anonymous investors indirectly, they are much more likely to demand instant profits and encourage rich leadership to screw the workers. Wealth invariably (but not always) makes people less humane and more arrogant. The solution to avoid this Kafkaesque trap multitudes are willing to saddle around their necks is worker-owned co-ops.
wolverine876 3y ago
That's exactly the 'zeitgeist' I'm talking about: > Working together; believing in, having compassion for, and doing good for others are all outré, often depicted as humanly impossible and ridiculed. We all have better angels and worse; there's nothing special about the our worse ones that means they are somehow more fundamental or necessary. We actually can do much better - not perfectly, of course, that is a strawperson; but we can do much better.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Based on what reasoning...? You sound really confident so I'm assuming there is some substance here.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Based on overwhelming evidence. Based on people I know and interact with all the time; based on thousands of years of history, philosophy, stories, religion that embody it and talk about it. Based on our reality: We were born into a world built by it, free and prosperous and safe far beyond any of our ancestors. Generations before us actually built that (and what are we building for the next?). Look what King and Einstein and Keynes (and Friedman) and Steinum and all those people built - none profiting much from it. Do you really doubt that humans have better angels and worse - inside every one of us, and that we have a choice? It's hardly a novel idea, though I can see that it's outre, it's disruptive and outside the pale, in this (uber-reactionary?) moment. Otherwise, who would want to deny that reality?
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Can you list a few reasoned out examples of this 'overwhelming evidence'? From what I understand of modern biology even newborn babies are not entirely blank slates, there's some amount of genetic and epigenetic influence so that many 'choices' are not really up to the individual to decide. And certainly by adulthood, which is the vast majority of passing HN readers, many many permanent life altering choices have occurred. For a real world example, the children and grandchildren of those who suffered severe starvation in the Netherlands during WW2 have noticeably worse characteristics on average, in terms of a shorter lifespan, less healthy, etc.., compared to families that didn't undergo that. Even their personalities and behaviours, on average, were affected.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > From what I understand of modern biology even newborn babies are not entirely blank slates, there's some amount of genetic and epigenetic influence so that many 'choices' are not really up to the individual to decide. ... I think you are taking the influences we all have - emotional, physical, environmental, etc. - to an extreme. It's not blank slate or automaton. People still make lots of choices, even if there are drives and other influences one way or the other. You don't have to do bad things, and you can choose to deal with your natural drives, emotions, etc. in many ways.
- bradleyjg 3y ago
  That was always bizarre rhetoric from billionaires. You don’t trip and accidentally stand up one of the richest people in the world. Those men knew exactly what they wanted and spent every waking moment working towards it. Money. SV earnestness has always been a con.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > SV earnestness has always been a con. Again, people love to say it, like it sounds smart. Humans are earnest and deceitful, to varying degrees at varying times. We do acheive earnest goods; we have human rights, for example, democracy, and lots of peace (but not enough). We have a choice, free will, the moral choice of thousands of years of (much) religion and philosophy.
    - bradleyjg 3y ago
      [flagged]
CoastalCoder 3y ago
I wonder if that level of skepticism largely tracks with age? I don't recall "believing" in an employer since maybe my early 30's.
- warkdarrior 3y ago
  "A man who is not a Liberal at sixteen has no heart; a man who is not a Conservative at sixty has no head." —Benjamin Disraeli Plug in your own appropriate interpretation of the Liberal/Conservative labels.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Interesting - maybe with the average age of SV? Has that increased? > I don't recall "believing" in an employer since maybe my early 30's. Not even a small one? Where everyone knows everyone?
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    Your question makes me realize there's some ambiguity regarding "believing" in a company. There have been teams, especially small ones, where I trusted everyone on the team to act like a true friend, and to strive to do good things for the company. I don't recall ever working for an organization where I 100% cared about their goals, or believed 100% in the righteousness of their goals, or where I was 100% sure they'd succeed.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Agreed. It's never 100%. Life is more complex and nuanced than that. Nobody - the other people or myself - is 100% caring, righteous, etc. Real, adult ove is caring for, believing in, and sometimes committing to the flawed creatures, even as we're flawed ourselves.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  I never have at any age, but I also grew up extremely poor and watched my mother take a company to court over wage theft and win. She, as a matter of course, always kept detailed records of time worked every single day. The court decided that level of record keeping over years was enough. I may have some level of loyalty to those around me but even that comes with a healthy bit of cynicism.

and for anyone that actually believed companies cared about those things when they said them, I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell you.

by ejb999 3y ago

and for anyone that actually believed companies cared about those things when they said them, I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell you.

concordDance 3y ago

A company is controlled by people. If those people care about those things (and aren't in a system that pressurises them not to or selects for people who do) then the "company" will also care about those things.

1letterunixname 3y ago
If the company is controlled by distant, diffuse, anonymous investors indirectly, they are much more likely to demand instant profits and encourage rich leadership to screw the workers. Wealth invariably (but not always) makes people less humane and more arrogant. The solution to avoid this Kafkaesque trap multitudes are willing to saddle around their necks is worker-owned co-ops.

wolverine876 3y ago

That's exactly the 'zeitgeist' I'm talking about: > Working together; believing in, having compassion for, and doing good for others are all outré, often depicted as humanly impossible and ridiculed. We all have better angels and worse; there's nothing special about the our worse ones that means they are somehow more fundamental or necessary. We actually can do much better - not perfectly, of course, that is a strawperson; but we can do much better.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
Based on what reasoning...? You sound really confident so I'm assuming there is some substance here.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Based on overwhelming evidence. Based on people I know and interact with all the time; based on thousands of years of history, philosophy, stories, religion that embody it and talk about it. Based on our reality: We were born into a world built by it, free and prosperous and safe far beyond any of our ancestors. Generations before us actually built that (and what are we building for the next?). Look what King and Einstein and Keynes (and Friedman) and Steinum and all those people built - none profiting much from it. Do you really doubt that humans have better angels and worse - inside every one of us, and that we have a choice? It's hardly a novel idea, though I can see that it's outre, it's disruptive and outside the pale, in this (uber-reactionary?) moment. Otherwise, who would want to deny that reality?
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Can you list a few reasoned out examples of this 'overwhelming evidence'? From what I understand of modern biology even newborn babies are not entirely blank slates, there's some amount of genetic and epigenetic influence so that many 'choices' are not really up to the individual to decide. And certainly by adulthood, which is the vast majority of passing HN readers, many many permanent life altering choices have occurred. For a real world example, the children and grandchildren of those who suffered severe starvation in the Netherlands during WW2 have noticeably worse characteristics on average, in terms of a shorter lifespan, less healthy, etc.., compared to families that didn't undergo that. Even their personalities and behaviours, on average, were affected.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > From what I understand of modern biology even newborn babies are not entirely blank slates, there's some amount of genetic and epigenetic influence so that many 'choices' are not really up to the individual to decide. ... I think you are taking the influences we all have - emotional, physical, environmental, etc. - to an extreme. It's not blank slate or automaton. People still make lots of choices, even if there are drives and other influences one way or the other. You don't have to do bad things, and you can choose to deal with your natural drives, emotions, etc. in many ways.
bradleyjg 3y ago
That was always bizarre rhetoric from billionaires. You don’t trip and accidentally stand up one of the richest people in the world. Those men knew exactly what they wanted and spent every waking moment working towards it. Money. SV earnestness has always been a con.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > SV earnestness has always been a con. Again, people love to say it, like it sounds smart. Humans are earnest and deceitful, to varying degrees at varying times. We do acheive earnest goods; we have human rights, for example, democracy, and lots of peace (but not enough). We have a choice, free will, the moral choice of thousands of years of (much) religion and philosophy.
  - bradleyjg 3y ago
    [flagged]

CoastalCoder 3y ago

I wonder if that level of skepticism largely tracks with age? I don't recall "believing" in an employer since maybe my early 30's.

warkdarrior 3y ago
"A man who is not a Liberal at sixteen has no heart; a man who is not a Conservative at sixty has no head." —Benjamin Disraeli Plug in your own appropriate interpretation of the Liberal/Conservative labels.
wolverine876 3y ago
Interesting - maybe with the average age of SV? Has that increased? > I don't recall "believing" in an employer since maybe my early 30's. Not even a small one? Where everyone knows everyone?
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  Your question makes me realize there's some ambiguity regarding "believing" in a company. There have been teams, especially small ones, where I trusted everyone on the team to act like a true friend, and to strive to do good things for the company. I don't recall ever working for an organization where I 100% cared about their goals, or believed 100% in the righteousness of their goals, or where I was 100% sure they'd succeed.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Agreed. It's never 100%. Life is more complex and nuanced than that. Nobody - the other people or myself - is 100% caring, righteous, etc. Real, adult ove is caring for, believing in, and sometimes committing to the flawed creatures, even as we're flawed ourselves.
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
I never have at any age, but I also grew up extremely poor and watched my mother take a company to court over wage theft and win. She, as a matter of course, always kept detailed records of time worked every single day. The court decided that level of record keeping over years was enough. I may have some level of loyalty to those around me but even that comes with a healthy bit of cynicism.