3 ms·

That bit about resentment sounds more like a "you" problem.

kelseyfrog 3y ago
I'm actually really interested in why people feel this way when in these situations. It's an app with cartoon-y characters and somehow when they don't match identity expectations, people seem to feel something about that? It seems so low stakes to me, I simply don't care about them, but some people seem to be really invested in these cartoons and that means I have something to learn about how brains work.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  My main issue is that it’s scattershot diversity, not a thoughtful diversity. Scattershot diversity is what Hollywood films also are finding out causes anger. It’s when you take all the races, genders, etc., and just make sure there’s at least one of each in every movie. This also ironically cheapens diversity, because everyone doubts whether that character would have been there if it wasn’t for the race card. Compare this with targeted, meaningful diversity. A film studio might make 4 films: One set in 1500s England, one in modern Congo, one in Brazil, one in Mongolia. The British one is almost entirely white people, the Congo one almost entirely black people, etc. My point is: Vary up the locale, and keep the diversity accurate to the locale. If the locale is diversified enough, the diverse representation will follow with almost no complaints. It’s not like Europe has a monopoly on stories - I’m sure that every culture has stories untold that could be adapted into interesting material.
  - Arainach 3y ago
    I have yet to meet anyone legitimately angry for the reasons you claim. I have met several who profess such a belief, but in every single case it is the presence of anyone not like them in the representation that they disagree with, not any actual thoughtfulness. These people always find a new goalpost to move to: "How dare they have a black person on this show?" "How dare they have a black person kiss a white person on this show?" "How dare they have a [X] on this show?" "How dare they have characters not speaking English on this show?", etc., etc. Not being pandered to 100% of the time does not mean that someone is being repressed. These are *auxiliary graphics in a phone app*. Not even UI elements. Is this really something you consider worth getting worked up about and resenting?
    - gjsman-1000 3y ago
      If every graphic was of a straight white male named Bob, are you telling me you wouldn’t give a darn yourself? By your own logic, they are auxiliary graphics in a phone app, so who cares? On that note: “I have yet to meet anyone legitimately angry for the reasons you claim” 1. Where do you get the authority to determine a legitimate reason? Have you dialogued with them to fully understand, instead of stereotyping? 2. Congratulations, you just met me.
      - kelseyfrog 3y ago
        It sounds like you welcome diversity, but have high standards on what folks might call "token diversity". Did I get that right? I'm not exactly the right way to phrase this, but you might say that token diversity isn't grounded with in-universe explanation, or something like that? If that's true, how do you approach topics like sex and gender? How does one justify a character being queer, trans, &c? On one had I can see, "their identity should add to the story," but on the other hand in real life plenty of people simply are queer or trans or whatever and completely and have stories to tell that don't relate to their identity. If that's not true, please disregard. :)
  - numpad0 3y ago
    And what you have characterized as scattershot diversity is basically same as racial caricaturization. Is adding a heebie lussiyan achshent to a random drunkard character a sign of respect to Russian nationals and embracement for diversity? Likely not…
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  I'll bite. When I draw someone, I don't give much thought to skin color or nationality. Someone is intentionally choosing a stereotype to signal a particular culture, region, or race. If you asked me to draw a Chinese man, he could be in a suit or traditional or a pair of jeans and t shirt. Which do I pick? I suppose whatever the scene or situation has called for. Now, what about a generic "learn Spanish" sentence? What does a Chinese man in traditional wear have to do with the Spanish word for cheese? Would I find a Chinese man in traditional Chinese clothes speaking Spanish in Mexico? No. Probably not. What I find is that depictions of stereotypes out of context are an unnecessary distraction pushing a perspective unrelated to the task at hand. And yes, while it may be minor in contrast to every true and serious topic, if someone introduces themselves at a party as Dr. So and So, I'm curious as to why a title was brought into a peer-to-peer conversation. At best it is a distraction that worst an unnecessary signaling of self. Sincerely, Sir Pizza Esq., C.E.O. the Third
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    But you're not going, "this representation doesn't conform to my expectations so it shouldn't exist." It sounds like you're not taking it that far. Am I wrong? I feel like I understand the situations that make you feel this way, but I'm still left wondering, why? Can you walk me through your emotional reasoning? Which cognitive mechanisms contribute toward the feeling?
    - pizzafeelsright 3y ago
      Sure. Corporate or HR or someone is pushing for a perspective that is not natural. Real example: I created documentation for a specific team, showed it to my supervisor, who approved with one requested change: that I embed alternate text for every image. I knew the target team had no sight impaired people so I asked why. Her explanation was that perhaps someone who was sight impaired might at some point want to review the documentation. Because of a hypothetical future reality, I was instructed to make changes that were not apart of the original requirement, to benefit someone who to all of our known realities does not yet exist. I was not asked to translate the document into the 30 languages our company employees speak - this is a true reality. Now we can argue that text can be converted into languages using existing technology and at the time image to text translation does not capture the intent of the flow charts and screenshots that I had created so a human would have to generate these alternate text blobs. This one person had a perspective that while admirable was not exactly grounded in reality or practicality but was manifested from their own desires, bias, or influence. Now, my text was not screened for vocabulary levels that match the intended audience so it is possible that I was either being condescending or esoteric but that was not addressed because the concern was brought up. I do believe we each have a desire to shape to shape our world into our vision - and that bias should be met grace, humility, and thoughtful expression when spoken by someone in authority or with power. My frustration is when an unrelated preference or opinion shapes the way a goal is met instead of the completion of the task.

I'm actually really interested in why people feel this way when in these situations. It's an app with cartoon-y characters and somehow when they don't match identity expectations, people seem to feel something about that? It seems so low stakes to me, I simply don't care about them, but some people seem to be really invested in these cartoons and that means I have something to learn about how brains work.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
My main issue is that it’s scattershot diversity, not a thoughtful diversity. Scattershot diversity is what Hollywood films also are finding out causes anger. It’s when you take all the races, genders, etc., and just make sure there’s at least one of each in every movie. This also ironically cheapens diversity, because everyone doubts whether that character would have been there if it wasn’t for the race card. Compare this with targeted, meaningful diversity. A film studio might make 4 films: One set in 1500s England, one in modern Congo, one in Brazil, one in Mongolia. The British one is almost entirely white people, the Congo one almost entirely black people, etc. My point is: Vary up the locale, and keep the diversity accurate to the locale. If the locale is diversified enough, the diverse representation will follow with almost no complaints. It’s not like Europe has a monopoly on stories - I’m sure that every culture has stories untold that could be adapted into interesting material.
- Arainach 3y ago
  I have yet to meet anyone legitimately angry for the reasons you claim. I have met several who profess such a belief, but in every single case it is the presence of anyone not like them in the representation that they disagree with, not any actual thoughtfulness. These people always find a new goalpost to move to: "How dare they have a black person on this show?" "How dare they have a black person kiss a white person on this show?" "How dare they have a [X] on this show?" "How dare they have characters not speaking English on this show?", etc., etc. Not being pandered to 100% of the time does not mean that someone is being repressed. These are *auxiliary graphics in a phone app*. Not even UI elements. Is this really something you consider worth getting worked up about and resenting?
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    If every graphic was of a straight white male named Bob, are you telling me you wouldn’t give a darn yourself? By your own logic, they are auxiliary graphics in a phone app, so who cares? On that note: “I have yet to meet anyone legitimately angry for the reasons you claim” 1. Where do you get the authority to determine a legitimate reason? Have you dialogued with them to fully understand, instead of stereotyping? 2. Congratulations, you just met me.
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      It sounds like you welcome diversity, but have high standards on what folks might call "token diversity". Did I get that right? I'm not exactly the right way to phrase this, but you might say that token diversity isn't grounded with in-universe explanation, or something like that? If that's true, how do you approach topics like sex and gender? How does one justify a character being queer, trans, &c? On one had I can see, "their identity should add to the story," but on the other hand in real life plenty of people simply are queer or trans or whatever and completely and have stories to tell that don't relate to their identity. If that's not true, please disregard. :)
- numpad0 3y ago
  And what you have characterized as scattershot diversity is basically same as racial caricaturization. Is adding a heebie lussiyan achshent to a random drunkard character a sign of respect to Russian nationals and embracement for diversity? Likely not…
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
I'll bite. When I draw someone, I don't give much thought to skin color or nationality. Someone is intentionally choosing a stereotype to signal a particular culture, region, or race. If you asked me to draw a Chinese man, he could be in a suit or traditional or a pair of jeans and t shirt. Which do I pick? I suppose whatever the scene or situation has called for. Now, what about a generic "learn Spanish" sentence? What does a Chinese man in traditional wear have to do with the Spanish word for cheese? Would I find a Chinese man in traditional Chinese clothes speaking Spanish in Mexico? No. Probably not. What I find is that depictions of stereotypes out of context are an unnecessary distraction pushing a perspective unrelated to the task at hand. And yes, while it may be minor in contrast to every true and serious topic, if someone introduces themselves at a party as Dr. So and So, I'm curious as to why a title was brought into a peer-to-peer conversation. At best it is a distraction that worst an unnecessary signaling of self. Sincerely, Sir Pizza Esq., C.E.O. the Third
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  But you're not going, "this representation doesn't conform to my expectations so it shouldn't exist." It sounds like you're not taking it that far. Am I wrong? I feel like I understand the situations that make you feel this way, but I'm still left wondering, why? Can you walk me through your emotional reasoning? Which cognitive mechanisms contribute toward the feeling?
  - pizzafeelsright 3y ago
    Sure. Corporate or HR or someone is pushing for a perspective that is not natural. Real example: I created documentation for a specific team, showed it to my supervisor, who approved with one requested change: that I embed alternate text for every image. I knew the target team had no sight impaired people so I asked why. Her explanation was that perhaps someone who was sight impaired might at some point want to review the documentation. Because of a hypothetical future reality, I was instructed to make changes that were not apart of the original requirement, to benefit someone who to all of our known realities does not yet exist. I was not asked to translate the document into the 30 languages our company employees speak - this is a true reality. Now we can argue that text can be converted into languages using existing technology and at the time image to text translation does not capture the intent of the flow charts and screenshots that I had created so a human would have to generate these alternate text blobs. This one person had a perspective that while admirable was not exactly grounded in reality or practicality but was manifested from their own desires, bias, or influence. Now, my text was not screened for vocabulary levels that match the intended audience so it is possible that I was either being condescending or esoteric but that was not addressed because the concern was brought up. I do believe we each have a desire to shape to shape our world into our vision - and that bias should be met grace, humility, and thoughtful expression when spoken by someone in authority or with power. My frustration is when an unrelated preference or opinion shapes the way a goal is met instead of the completion of the task.