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Whenever I think of Brexit and Britain's imperial legacy, I think of Mechanical Orange. You know, in the end, where Alex's tormentors come back to torment him?
by blagie 3y ago
Whenever I think of Brexit and Britain's imperial legacy, I think of Mechanical Orange. You know, in the end, where Alex's tormentors come back to torment him? I travel the world a lot, and a lot of people /really/ don't like England. Heck, even the Scots and especially the Irish have bones to pick with England. I can't imagine that doesn't translate into passive-aggressive policy on just about everything.
UK, as part of the EU, was shielded from that.
- On one hand, every policy was with Europe and not just the UK, so there wasn't any way to pick on the UK.
- On the other hand, the EU was a major economic block, both as a market and as a source of technology. It has massive negotiating leverage.
You can't really research this sort of thing, since China won't go out and say "Century of Humiliation" and "Opium Wars" in trade policy (at least much). India won't reference the "Eat the Meat" scene in the Gandhi movie, but it sets a lot of the national zeitgeist. Kenya probably won't talk about the Mao Mao rebellion. Ireland isn't going to talk about the potato famine or Bloody Sunday. I simply can't imagine those aren't in the back of everyone's minds as they talk to English diplomats. In terms of friends, they have a few, but not many (although a few, like the US, are disproportionately useful as friends).
I think things will only get worse for the UK from here. That kind of broad-based deep-seated resentment is very rare in diplomacy.
They'd be best off rejoining the EU. If they decide to do that, I think the EU will invite them back, but I really don't think they'll get the same kind of sweetheart deal this time around. I don't know if they will want that, or if they do, if they'll accept a less-than-sweetheart deal.
- alexchamberlain 3y agoI'm not passing an opinion on Brexit (that's rather dangerous as a Brit). I went to NZ back in 2019, and yes, we met a bunch of Kiwis and Aussis that didn't like the UK. (Now this could be a side effect of who we met/their age etc) What was interesting was that their dislike generally centred on the UK _joining_ the EU in the '70s, as we dramatically decreased trade via the old trade routes and they felt "abandoned". I haven't checked how true that is, but it was an interesting perspective that we weren't hearing from within the UK at the time.
- kcartlidge 3y agoI'm British, and agree with everything you said. We did what we did, so I understand (to the extent I am able to, not having lived it). All I would say in our defence (and I'm aware it isn't a great defence and certainly doesn't excuse it) is that: - That wasn't the current us, it was back then and I'd hope we were more enlightened now (despite the dross of our political machine). - Pretty much every nation at some time in their past has dealt terribly with others. We are in the position of being the most recent old-fashioned empire, whilst having had the technology (Industrial Revolution, coal, guns, ships) to scale our oppression. Most (all?) nations would have done the same thing if they'd got to that point of power first. I'm not my ancestors. I wouldn't choose the paths they did. But the above points are both true and also excuses, so to the extent that any current citizen is representative of their national history I apologise. As for the lack of sweetheart deals for re-joining the EU, again I agree but with the added comment that I think that's a good thing. Only by going all in could we ever truly be a part of the EU. As long as we demanded exclusion from, or preference in, so much we put our national interest first whilst ignoring the wider supranational interest that comes from a united whole. To be part of a union of equals we ought to go in as equals in the first place, thus forcing upon ourselves the incentives to do it properly and build a shared future.
- blagie 3y ago> I'd hope we were more enlightened now That would carry more weight if, for example, loot stolen from other nations were being returned, rather than sitting in your museums. England also still comes off as profoundly arrogant in its diplomacy and other international dealings. The English accent is sometimes used in American movies as a shortcut for "pretentious" or "smug." Perhaps this worked okay when there was something to back it up, but there's less and less there. See also: Post-imperial Spain a few hundred years ago (same problem). Current Russia (same problem). France had a bit of that too, although not nearly as bad as Spain / Russia / UK. > Most (all?) nations would have done the same thing if they'd got to that point of power first. This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of non-imperial nations both now and throughout history. It also absolutely doesn't matter. For my argument, what matters are impressions. Mao Mao Rebellion in Kenya was 1952-1960. Most of the people who participated are alive today, and it's such a major part of the national identity. Opium Wars are ancient history, but again, it's the narrative that counts. There are few nations whose name carries as much baggage as the UK. Even Germany -- post Nazi -- made an effort to dump all that baggage by in the form of anti-Nazi laws, apologies, and in some cases, even reparations. > Only by going all in could we ever truly be a part of the EU. I agree. I think the key thing, though, is that unless the England does something like this (or something analogous), I think it will eventually be in a pretty bad place. I'm not optimistic for England coming to the same conclusion. Good luck!