6 ms·

Everybody saw this coming, even (especially?) the people who were campaigning for Brexit. The UK had negotiated itself all sorts of special perks as an EU membe

Everybody saw this coming, even (especially?) the people who were campaigning for Brexit. The UK had negotiated itself all sorts of special perks as an EU member (keeping the pound, etc), and decided to throw it all away because..? Possibly the only ones who didn’t see it coming are the people who voted for Brexit. I’m sure the North is just booming after Brexit /s David Cameron’s legacy is Brexit and that thing with the pig. It’s what he deserves.

isoprophlex 3y ago
Thus proving (again) that there are very real limits to democracy in current western societies; that democracy is not hardened against populist demagogues... All the possible fixes i can think of aren't really palatable: mandatory critical thinking training for voters (not egalitarian), strict long term accountability measures for politicians (chilling effect; can be weaponized by opponents)... Ugh.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  I agree that populism is a threat to democracy and also that the obvious potential solutions are less than ideal. It’s a tough problem, and one I worry about in the United States. It’s hard to convince people that are pissed off about their lot in life that the person telling them they can fix all of their problems if they were only elected may not have their best interests in mind, or that their ‘solutions’ are not at all practical, or that they’re just interested in power and don’t plan to fix anything. I guess I just don’t understand how anyone gets emotionally invested in a politician.
  - Whoppertime 3y ago
    How can you say Populism is a threat to Democracy. It's like saying the biggest threat to democracy is voters. It's unelected unaccountable "experts" who remain in their jobs regardless of who is elected that is a threat to democracy. The so called Deep State
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It's a real problem. I'm from NL where we just voted one of the worst assholes in dutch politics to the top spot, and I'm still in partial denial about it. "never again"... unless of course we do it again. The harder problem is what to do about it? Democracy doesn't guarantee 'good outcomes' it only guarantees 'somewhat supported outcomes'.
  - TomK32 3y ago
    To be fair, Top Spot in The Netherlands is only 23.5% and there isn't a new government yet. Does the average Nederlander know what bloc each of those 15 parties in the parliament belong to?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      'only'???
  - isoprophlex 3y ago
    I'm Dutch too. It's been pretty wild, yeah.
- jdiez17 3y ago
  I think "mandatory critical thinking training for voters" is the only actual long term solution. I would generalize it as "better education".
  - Whoppertime 3y ago
    Critical thinking about what issues? The cost and benefits of EU Membership? The cost and benefits of fighting climate change? The cost and benefits of fighting Russia, and fueling a proxy war that is effectively a bloodletting exercise for both sides and a chance for advanced militaries to test new hardware and tactics not unlike the Spanish Civil War?
- Tiktaalik 3y ago
  The problem here was that in this case the UK abandoned representative democracy for direct democracy (a referendum) which instantly gets out of control as opportunists take it over and layer lie after lie in order to get the outcome they want. Being here in Canada I've been through a number of referendums and I've never seen one that wasn't instantly hijacked by insincere interests and the objectives twisted with utterly disingenuous arguments. In a democracy Referendums should be avoided at all costs.
dfawcus 3y ago
We did not negotiate perks, we simply refused to move from our existing conditions when new treaties were negotiated. i.e. we stayed with something close to our entry conditions, accepted some changes from new treaties. So the "opt outs" were really declining to "opt in" to new treaty terms. Any new entrant to the EU has to accept the whole Acquis as it is at the time. So if the EU would have us again, we'd be in the same position as the most recent entrant, plus all of the changes which have happened since.

isoprophlex 3y ago

Thus proving (again) that there are very real limits to democracy in current western societies; that democracy is not hardened against populist demagogues... All the possible fixes i can think of aren't really palatable: mandatory critical thinking training for voters (not egalitarian), strict long term accountability measures for politicians (chilling effect; can be weaponized by opponents)... Ugh.

quickthrowman 3y ago
I agree that populism is a threat to democracy and also that the obvious potential solutions are less than ideal. It’s a tough problem, and one I worry about in the United States. It’s hard to convince people that are pissed off about their lot in life that the person telling them they can fix all of their problems if they were only elected may not have their best interests in mind, or that their ‘solutions’ are not at all practical, or that they’re just interested in power and don’t plan to fix anything. I guess I just don’t understand how anyone gets emotionally invested in a politician.
- Whoppertime 3y ago
  How can you say Populism is a threat to Democracy. It's like saying the biggest threat to democracy is voters. It's unelected unaccountable "experts" who remain in their jobs regardless of who is elected that is a threat to democracy. The so called Deep State
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
jacquesm 3y ago
It's a real problem. I'm from NL where we just voted one of the worst assholes in dutch politics to the top spot, and I'm still in partial denial about it. "never again"... unless of course we do it again. The harder problem is what to do about it? Democracy doesn't guarantee 'good outcomes' it only guarantees 'somewhat supported outcomes'.
- TomK32 3y ago
  To be fair, Top Spot in The Netherlands is only 23.5% and there isn't a new government yet. Does the average Nederlander know what bloc each of those 15 parties in the parliament belong to?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    'only'???
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  I'm Dutch too. It's been pretty wild, yeah.
jdiez17 3y ago
I think "mandatory critical thinking training for voters" is the only actual long term solution. I would generalize it as "better education".
- Whoppertime 3y ago
  Critical thinking about what issues? The cost and benefits of EU Membership? The cost and benefits of fighting climate change? The cost and benefits of fighting Russia, and fueling a proxy war that is effectively a bloodletting exercise for both sides and a chance for advanced militaries to test new hardware and tactics not unlike the Spanish Civil War?
Tiktaalik 3y ago
The problem here was that in this case the UK abandoned representative democracy for direct democracy (a referendum) which instantly gets out of control as opportunists take it over and layer lie after lie in order to get the outcome they want. Being here in Canada I've been through a number of referendums and I've never seen one that wasn't instantly hijacked by insincere interests and the objectives twisted with utterly disingenuous arguments. In a democracy Referendums should be avoided at all costs.

dfawcus 3y ago

We did not negotiate perks, we simply refused to move from our existing conditions when new treaties were negotiated. i.e. we stayed with something close to our entry conditions, accepted some changes from new treaties. So the "opt outs" were really declining to "opt in" to new treaty terms. Any new entrant to the EU has to accept the whole Acquis as it is at the time. So if the EU would have us again, we'd be in the same position as the most recent entrant, plus all of the changes which have happened since.