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Stalin's purges extensively utilized false accusations and show trials, so there being a plausible story for each individual disappearance/conviction doesn't ma

Stalin's purges extensively utilized false accusations and show trials, so there being a plausible story for each individual disappearance/conviction doesn't make this not a purge.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
Equally, it's bad reporting to paint everything a Stalinian purge without the subtlety of the possible full story, not least when Russia may be involved. Edit: a purge as practiced by Staline was to increase and solidify his personal power. There may be a similar dynamic at play here but at least in Qin Gang's case it seems to be much more complex. Simplistic and sensationalist labels prevent us from digging deeper into the interesting bit.
- gargablegar 3y ago
  They do make all the above points in the article - including that it’s hard to verify this information. Comparing it to Stalin is pretty apt - communist party with a figure head trying to hold onto power. Seems like more than just one person vanished and it’s all under totally opaque circumstances.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    If the information is difficult to verify the correct way is to be measured. My main gripe here is the sensationalist take on complex issues, starting with the over-the-top title. This could have been a substantive and interesting discussion... Edit: I tried to look past the clickbaity title to get to the interesting part, which I think to find the reason for specific people being 'purged'. Alas it is apparently not possible...
    - foldr 3y ago
      The lack of information is the point. In a Western democracy, government ministers don't just go missing without any official explanation for their disappearance. (I am not suggesting that such official explanations are always true, but they at least exist.)
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Here's an example from Australia: "On 17 December 1967, Harold Holt, the 17th prime minister of Australia, disappeared while swimming in the sea near Portsea, Victoria. An enormous search operation was mounted in and around Cheviot Beach, but his body was never recovered."
        foldr 3y ago
        He went for a swim and drowned. The facts of his disappearance are known and fully acknowledged insofar as anyone has been able to discover them. That's hardly an equivalent scenario to that of, e.g., Li Shangfu.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Did you even read the entire comment? It clearly says his body was never recovered, so 'the facts of his disappearance' are not fully known, by definition. Anyways, there's dozens of examples of presidents, prime ministers, ministers, deputy ministers, party leaders, etc., who've disappeared or died under mysterious circumstances. And that's just post WW2. Which anyone can find via a quick search online.
        foldr 3y ago
        >Holt loved the ocean, particularly spearfishing... On 17 December 1967, while Holt was spending the weekend at Portsea, he and four companions decided to drive to Point Nepean to watch sailor Alec Rose pass through The Rip on his solo circumnavigation attempt... Holt convinced the group to stop at remote Cheviot Beach for a swim before lunch – he had spearfished there on many previous occasions, and claimed to "know this beach like the back of my hand". Because of the rough conditions, only one other person, Alan Stewart, joined Holt in the water. Stewart kept close to shore, but Holt swam out into deeper water and was seemingly caught up in a rip, eventually disappearing from view. One of the witnesses, Marjorie Gillespie, described it as "like a leaf being taken out [...] so quick and final". He drowned. There's nothing mysterious about it. We are not living in an Agatha Christie novel. The point here isn't just that Li Shangfu has disappeared but that the fact of his disappearance has not even been officially acknowledged. If Lloyd Austin had been missing for months, the US government would at least acknowledge this and make some kind of statement about it.
    - LightHugger 3y ago
      The thing that's flying over your head is that the people preventing it from being measured are the people you're giving the benefit of the doubt because it hasn't been measured. In such cases, any rational actor has to assume the worst about the party preventing the measurement, to prevent rewarding that behavior and to encourage honest measurements.

Stalin's purges extensively utilized false accusations and show trials, so there being a plausible story for each individual disappearance/conviction doesn't make this not a purge.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Equally, it's bad reporting to paint everything a Stalinian purge without the subtlety of the possible full story, not least when Russia may be involved. Edit: a purge as practiced by Staline was to increase and solidify his personal power. There may be a similar dynamic at play here but at least in Qin Gang's case it seems to be much more complex. Simplistic and sensationalist labels prevent us from digging deeper into the interesting bit.

gargablegar 3y ago
They do make all the above points in the article - including that it’s hard to verify this information. Comparing it to Stalin is pretty apt - communist party with a figure head trying to hold onto power. Seems like more than just one person vanished and it’s all under totally opaque circumstances.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  If the information is difficult to verify the correct way is to be measured. My main gripe here is the sensationalist take on complex issues, starting with the over-the-top title. This could have been a substantive and interesting discussion... Edit: I tried to look past the clickbaity title to get to the interesting part, which I think to find the reason for specific people being 'purged'. Alas it is apparently not possible...
  - foldr 3y ago
    The lack of information is the point. In a Western democracy, government ministers don't just go missing without any official explanation for their disappearance. (I am not suggesting that such official explanations are always true, but they at least exist.)
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Here's an example from Australia: "On 17 December 1967, Harold Holt, the 17th prime minister of Australia, disappeared while swimming in the sea near Portsea, Victoria. An enormous search operation was mounted in and around Cheviot Beach, but his body was never recovered."
      - foldr 3y ago
        He went for a swim and drowned. The facts of his disappearance are known and fully acknowledged insofar as anyone has been able to discover them. That's hardly an equivalent scenario to that of, e.g., Li Shangfu.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Did you even read the entire comment? It clearly says his body was never recovered, so 'the facts of his disappearance' are not fully known, by definition. Anyways, there's dozens of examples of presidents, prime ministers, ministers, deputy ministers, party leaders, etc., who've disappeared or died under mysterious circumstances. And that's just post WW2. Which anyone can find via a quick search online.
        foldr 3y ago
        >Holt loved the ocean, particularly spearfishing... On 17 December 1967, while Holt was spending the weekend at Portsea, he and four companions decided to drive to Point Nepean to watch sailor Alec Rose pass through The Rip on his solo circumnavigation attempt... Holt convinced the group to stop at remote Cheviot Beach for a swim before lunch – he had spearfished there on many previous occasions, and claimed to "know this beach like the back of my hand". Because of the rough conditions, only one other person, Alan Stewart, joined Holt in the water. Stewart kept close to shore, but Holt swam out into deeper water and was seemingly caught up in a rip, eventually disappearing from view. One of the witnesses, Marjorie Gillespie, described it as "like a leaf being taken out [...] so quick and final". He drowned. There's nothing mysterious about it. We are not living in an Agatha Christie novel. The point here isn't just that Li Shangfu has disappeared but that the fact of his disappearance has not even been officially acknowledged. If Lloyd Austin had been missing for months, the US government would at least acknowledge this and make some kind of statement about it.
  - LightHugger 3y ago
    The thing that's flying over your head is that the people preventing it from being measured are the people you're giving the benefit of the doubt because it hasn't been measured. In such cases, any rational actor has to assume the worst about the party preventing the measurement, to prevent rewarding that behavior and to encourage honest measurements.