6 ms·

We need stories to be able to imagine and build the future. I empathise with the author but he doesn’t really offer an alternative

smokel 3y ago
After the rain comes sun. After the sun comes rain again. (Underwater Love, Smoke City, 1995)
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  With a particularly memorable film clip which was the first time I remember seeing the equivalent of what the Wachowski's later called Bullet Time. And the film clip doesn't seem to be on YT... Edit: can't find the full music video, but there's a clip just showing the "bullet time" bits: https://youtu.be/ZWXafUHFQu4?si=KL7-ICpWKvUyXczb https://youtu.be/ZWXafUHFQu4?si=KL7-ICpWKvUyXczb
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
krapp 3y ago
The problem isn't imagining and building the future, it's the particular political narrative out of which the tech class is trying to build the future. The problem is the future is being created by sociopathic, crony capitalist neo-reactionary cultists who want to rule over a broken world as its brutal philosopher kings, and consign everyone else into the mouth of Moloch. These are the people for whom the meme "Please don't create the Torment Nexus" was made. These people are the reason Ted Kaczynski is so popular amongst the tech underclass. I don't know what the alternative is, but we should be concerned.
- tnecniv 3y ago
  …is Ted Kaczynski popular among tech workers? Even the hardcore socialists I know aren’t really fans beyond acknowledging he had a good point or two.
  - j0hnyl 3y ago
    At this point most people don't even know who he is let alone read his writing.
    - krapp 3y ago
      I've seen the preamble to his manifesto quoted enough to know that isn't the case. Kaczynski's views on "the left" are point for point mainstream within internet culture now, and plenty of people will defend his views on technology, if not his violence. There was a recent thread about him here[0,1]. Plenty of people denouncing him, of course, but also lots of sympathy. I've also noticed a trend to reform (and excuse) his violent actions as being the effect of psychological torture by the CIA and MKULTRA. The linked article goes a bit deeper into how influential his manifesto has been on the culture. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36392976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36392976 [1]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/19/unabomber-ted-kaczynski-dangerous-anti-tech-manifesto-lives-on https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/19/unabomber-te...
    - kthejoker2 3y ago
      Au contraire, his name and his views are common knowledge among Gen Z/Gen Alpha. He is a minor TikTok celebrity.
      - j0hnyl 3y ago
        Interesting. Where can I read some of this stuff? Anywhere apart from tiktok?
  - MikusR 3y ago
    For some reason he is worshipped on this site.
- jcgrillo 3y ago
  Unions and taxes are the alternative. Nobody should be a billionaire. If there wasn't such a concentration of wealth among a few, detached sociopaths we wouldn't have to worry about their pseudo-religious delusions.
  - danaris 3y ago
    Exactly—and I would add onto that regulations with teeth, especially antitrust regulations. The gutting of antitrust under Reagan was instrumental in allowing the massive hyperconsolidation in all markets, with tech very prominent among them. The Biden administration's repudiation of the intellectually and morally bankrupt Chicago school interpretation of antitrust paves the way for a much better future, but it's going to take time, and it's going to need our support.
    - jaybrendansmith 3y ago
      And our votes. They won't go down without an ugly fight. "I welcome their hatred" - Roosevelt.
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
  Well sure but why blame it on sci-fi? Sounds to me like those people would create the torment nexus with or without sci-fi. It’s not like it’s super hard to come up with the concept of e.g. colonising Mars.
  - krapp 3y ago
    The article isn't blaming sci-fi, it's blaming tech elites for missing or ignoring the deeper implications and warnings in what they read, and twisting it into some wierd, dark mirror utopian fetish. I mean, one could just as well be a fan of sci-fi and realize the torment nexus is a bad thing, and not create it, even if one is a nerd with all the time, power and money in the world.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    Scifi can deliver an illusion of understanding. A metaphorical description of something very strange that the reader never actually experienced firsthand. That's a deep kind of dream. Not saying the vision is entirely invalid, but maybe it isn't as intimate an understanding as the reader thinks. It's a bit like religious literature that way.
dist-epoch 3y ago
Communism is the alternative. Always has been.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Capitalism is bad; Communism… how do we describe excruciatingly bad? We’ve tried it, it’s never worked, and because it relies on a fundamental denial of basic human freedoms, it will literally never work. The only question is how much misery it causes in the latest attempt.
  - VerminOctopus1 3y ago
    Seems to be working reasonably well for China. Or maybe that’s not considered “real” communism.
    - nynx 3y ago
      China is authoritarian-capitalist lol
      - ctxSw1tch 3y ago
        [dead]
    - sidlls 3y ago
      It isn't "real" communism. It's a semi-socialist dictatorship, just like the USSR was. It just has more elements of capitalism.
    - gjsman-1000 3y ago
      Nope, it’s not. It has a very capitalist society in terms of structure, regulation, safety nets, etc. On paper, sure, land is a 70-year lease, but China appears to just want to renew them. This is also because China already tried pure communism. There were no corporations, all industries were state owned. This lasted about a decade and was a bloodbath with famines, and almost all intellectuals or people with degrees were executed for promoting inequality by their existence (not kidding - actual history (“Stinking Old Ninth”) - go look it up at your library). Be careful what you wish for when putting communism and inequality in the same sentence. Do not assume China is the only guilty party. The USSR, as just one example, imprisoned 3,000 biologists for being on the wrong side of an evolution debate for being against Lamarckism. This culminated with banning study of neurophysiology, cell biology, and other fields. (The “Lysenkoism” purges - showing that, ironically, communist countries are among the most dangerous places to be a scientist.)
swayvil 3y ago
We could reserve the scifi for an esoteric inner circle of enlightened thinkers. People better able to handle the fire of scifi without munging things up. The exoteric hoi polloi get pablum and propaganda. (They can't appreciate good scifi anyway). Give them moral fables wrapped in cowboys with laser-guns.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  I'd watch this movie. Thank you
- JieJie 3y ago
  Maybe OP can burn any science fiction books they find in billionaires houses?
  - swayvil 3y ago
    Lol. Yes, I'd tell them that it's "for their health". Everybody likes that one.
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
"Science fiction, therefore, does not develop in accordance with the scientific method." The author provides an alternative, but perhaps readers might miss it. Science fiction is fiction not science. The alternative to science fiction is the scientific method and the elucidation of scientific fact. But these individuals are outcasts, dropouts, social failures. Not interested in education generally. Not interested in conventional occupations. They believe they know enough yet they barely know anything. Understanding computers is a far cry from understanding life. It's arguable, due to the time committment required, the more one understands computers the less one probably understands "the real world". Are these individuals interested in scientific fact, or are they more interested in fantasy and belief. Like Elisabeth Holmes. Charles Stross, the author of this op-ed, makes his living writing science fiction and fantasy. "Stick to what you know." Unlike "tech billionaires", Stross knows what he is talking about.

smokel 3y ago

After the rain comes sun. After the sun comes rain again. (Underwater Love, Smoke City, 1995)

BLKNSLVR 3y ago
With a particularly memorable film clip which was the first time I remember seeing the equivalent of what the Wachowski's later called Bullet Time. And the film clip doesn't seem to be on YT... Edit: can't find the full music video, but there's a clip just showing the "bullet time" bits: https://youtu.be/ZWXafUHFQu4?si=KL7-ICpWKvUyXczb https://youtu.be/ZWXafUHFQu4?si=KL7-ICpWKvUyXczb
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

krapp 3y ago

The problem isn't imagining and building the future, it's the particular political narrative out of which the tech class is trying to build the future. The problem is the future is being created by sociopathic, crony capitalist neo-reactionary cultists who want to rule over a broken world as its brutal philosopher kings, and consign everyone else into the mouth of Moloch. These are the people for whom the meme "Please don't create the Torment Nexus" was made. These people are the reason Ted Kaczynski is so popular amongst the tech underclass. I don't know what the alternative is, but we should be concerned.

tnecniv 3y ago
…is Ted Kaczynski popular among tech workers? Even the hardcore socialists I know aren’t really fans beyond acknowledging he had a good point or two.
- j0hnyl 3y ago
  At this point most people don't even know who he is let alone read his writing.
  - krapp 3y ago
    I've seen the preamble to his manifesto quoted enough to know that isn't the case. Kaczynski's views on "the left" are point for point mainstream within internet culture now, and plenty of people will defend his views on technology, if not his violence. There was a recent thread about him here[0,1]. Plenty of people denouncing him, of course, but also lots of sympathy. I've also noticed a trend to reform (and excuse) his violent actions as being the effect of psychological torture by the CIA and MKULTRA. The linked article goes a bit deeper into how influential his manifesto has been on the culture. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36392976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36392976 [1]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/19/unabomber-ted-kaczynski-dangerous-anti-tech-manifesto-lives-on https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/19/unabomber-te...
  - kthejoker2 3y ago
    Au contraire, his name and his views are common knowledge among Gen Z/Gen Alpha. He is a minor TikTok celebrity.
    - j0hnyl 3y ago
      Interesting. Where can I read some of this stuff? Anywhere apart from tiktok?
- MikusR 3y ago
  For some reason he is worshipped on this site.
jcgrillo 3y ago
Unions and taxes are the alternative. Nobody should be a billionaire. If there wasn't such a concentration of wealth among a few, detached sociopaths we wouldn't have to worry about their pseudo-religious delusions.
- danaris 3y ago
  Exactly—and I would add onto that regulations with teeth, especially antitrust regulations. The gutting of antitrust under Reagan was instrumental in allowing the massive hyperconsolidation in all markets, with tech very prominent among them. The Biden administration's repudiation of the intellectually and morally bankrupt Chicago school interpretation of antitrust paves the way for a much better future, but it's going to take time, and it's going to need our support.
  - jaybrendansmith 3y ago
    And our votes. They won't go down without an ugly fight. "I welcome their hatred" - Roosevelt.
sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
Well sure but why blame it on sci-fi? Sounds to me like those people would create the torment nexus with or without sci-fi. It’s not like it’s super hard to come up with the concept of e.g. colonising Mars.
- krapp 3y ago
  The article isn't blaming sci-fi, it's blaming tech elites for missing or ignoring the deeper implications and warnings in what they read, and twisting it into some wierd, dark mirror utopian fetish. I mean, one could just as well be a fan of sci-fi and realize the torment nexus is a bad thing, and not create it, even if one is a nerd with all the time, power and money in the world.
- swayvil 3y ago
  Scifi can deliver an illusion of understanding. A metaphorical description of something very strange that the reader never actually experienced firsthand. That's a deep kind of dream. Not saying the vision is entirely invalid, but maybe it isn't as intimate an understanding as the reader thinks. It's a bit like religious literature that way.

dist-epoch 3y ago

Communism is the alternative. Always has been.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Capitalism is bad; Communism… how do we describe excruciatingly bad? We’ve tried it, it’s never worked, and because it relies on a fundamental denial of basic human freedoms, it will literally never work. The only question is how much misery it causes in the latest attempt.
- VerminOctopus1 3y ago
  Seems to be working reasonably well for China. Or maybe that’s not considered “real” communism.
  - nynx 3y ago
    China is authoritarian-capitalist lol
    - ctxSw1tch 3y ago
      [dead]
  - sidlls 3y ago
    It isn't "real" communism. It's a semi-socialist dictatorship, just like the USSR was. It just has more elements of capitalism.
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    Nope, it’s not. It has a very capitalist society in terms of structure, regulation, safety nets, etc. On paper, sure, land is a 70-year lease, but China appears to just want to renew them. This is also because China already tried pure communism. There were no corporations, all industries were state owned. This lasted about a decade and was a bloodbath with famines, and almost all intellectuals or people with degrees were executed for promoting inequality by their existence (not kidding - actual history (“Stinking Old Ninth”) - go look it up at your library). Be careful what you wish for when putting communism and inequality in the same sentence. Do not assume China is the only guilty party. The USSR, as just one example, imprisoned 3,000 biologists for being on the wrong side of an evolution debate for being against Lamarckism. This culminated with banning study of neurophysiology, cell biology, and other fields. (The “Lysenkoism” purges - showing that, ironically, communist countries are among the most dangerous places to be a scientist.)

swayvil 3y ago

We could reserve the scifi for an esoteric inner circle of enlightened thinkers. People better able to handle the fire of scifi without munging things up. The exoteric hoi polloi get pablum and propaganda. (They can't appreciate good scifi anyway). Give them moral fables wrapped in cowboys with laser-guns.

kelseyfrog 3y ago
I'd watch this movie. Thank you
JieJie 3y ago
Maybe OP can burn any science fiction books they find in billionaires houses?
- swayvil 3y ago
  Lol. Yes, I'd tell them that it's "for their health". Everybody likes that one.

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

"Science fiction, therefore, does not develop in accordance with the scientific method." The author provides an alternative, but perhaps readers might miss it. Science fiction is fiction not science. The alternative to science fiction is the scientific method and the elucidation of scientific fact. But these individuals are outcasts, dropouts, social failures. Not interested in education generally. Not interested in conventional occupations. They believe they know enough yet they barely know anything. Understanding computers is a far cry from understanding life. It's arguable, due to the time committment required, the more one understands computers the less one probably understands "the real world". Are these individuals interested in scientific fact, or are they more interested in fantasy and belief. Like Elisabeth Holmes. Charles Stross, the author of this op-ed, makes his living writing science fiction and fantasy. "Stick to what you know." Unlike "tech billionaires", Stross knows what he is talking about.