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The workers in Europe can be fired with equal ease, even in countries like Germany. If the HR and management want one out, one is out. The labour code will only

The workers in Europe can be fired with equal ease, even in countries like Germany. If the HR and management want one out, one is out. The labour code will only be followed if one is quick enough to hire a lawyer. Is is worth the massive paycut the Europeans are accepting?

ThePhysicist 3y ago
Once you reach a certain size it's quite complicated to let people go, if you need to fire a large amount of people you need to e.g. work out a social plan, you can't fire performance-based unless people grossly neglect their job responsibilities. For smaller companies with less than a few hundred employees it's easier of course, but once you're in unionized territory firing becomes a process that the management needs to work out with the employee board.
sausagefeet 3y ago
It is factually true that a company can come to you and claim you are fired and have to leave, however it is illegal. One does not need to be quick with a lawyer. If you are a developer in Sweden, and you have joined the Swedish software engineering union, they will provide you legal support to ensure that you get what the law guarantees you. During the big layoffs this year, they actually waved any prereqs for how long you had to pay dues in the Union to get legal support. The layoffs in Sweden required the company to negotiate with employees for how much money they would accept to leave, in many cases this severance was full salary for a year. I live in Netherlands now and it's the same thing. Yes, a company will make it hard on you but they have no legal status here and will 100% lose going to court. Yes, not everyone has the courage to stand up to their employer, and it may take some time for the legal process to work itself out, and it can be stressful. But the guarantees are there. For myself, as an American who moved to Europe and has stayed, I found my quality of life much better. The reduction in pay has not bothered me one bit.
sensanaty 3y ago
At least in the Netherlands it's extremely difficult to fire someone (which is a good thing). Unless they do something straight up illegal or are proven to be extremely incompetent, the only way to get rid of someone is to wait out their contract, assuming they don't have an unlimited contract. And if they're on the works council (mandatory in any company with at least 50 employees, with more seats the higher the number of employees), it's even more difficult to fire them without a very long, well-kept chain of proof for their incompetency. The employer can always negotiate with the employee if they want them gone sooner, but that's still going to be expensive for the employer, and the worker in this case has much more robust rights than the employer. If my company wanted me gone I could easily get a year's salary out of it with any decent lawyer, as I have a permanent contract. > If the HR and management want one out, one is out. Definitely not in the Netherlands, and I expect most EU countries are similar. > Is is worth the massive paycut the Europeans are accepting? I don't earn anywhere near the 600k number that I see flying around in this thread and elsewhere on HN (which is lunacy to me but more power to you guys), but I'm still better off than 99% of people I meet, have my own home, have actual usable public transport and don't have to worry about a hospital visit bankrupting me. Oh, and my employer can't arbitrarily decide to just fire me, and if they do (for example in a wave of layoffs) I get compensated generously for it, plus the gov't itself will compensate me as well if I can't find a job for whatever reason while having 35 paid vacation days (I think the legal minimum is 25 vacation days for a fulltime employee, not 100% sure on that number though) + 10 or so public holidays. So, yes, definitely worth the pay cut. There's more to life than gross monetary amounts, and from the horror stories my USA-ian friends relay to me about living there, I consider myself quite privileged to be where I'm at.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  > At least in the Netherlands it's extremely difficult to fire someone (which is a good thing). In your experience, has this led to more careful hiring? One big downside I've seen at some companies in the US is that its so easy to fire someone that companies can tend to hire whoever walks in the door. Especially at larger and publicly traded companies, it can often be more important to fill seats and show company growth when times are good and fire by the thousands at the first sign of any economic issues coming ahead. I don't personally mind it being easy for a company to fire someone as long as that situation is clear before accepting a job, but it would be interesting if we have clear examples of better hiring practices when the employee can't be fired easily.
  - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
    Could explain what do you mean by better hiring practices. I think it is widely known that 4 rounds of interviews are not enough to judge someone, but it is not known if there exists a better practice apart from only hiring connections and time taking proctored take home project, which both have their fair share of problems.
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      That's actually what I'd be interested to learn. Presumably if a company can't fire someone easily they would have been motivated to find better predictors of future job success than a few short interviews. Anecdotally I've seen companies skip even that process and hire anyone who seems even slightly qualified. The bar for "better hiring practices" is pretty low for me when the examples I've seen over 20 years in tech are either hire anyone to fill seats or throw obscure logic problems at candidates assuming that maps well to the role being hired for.
      - oblio 3y ago
        Trial periods. In Luxembourg they're 6 months. You can be sent packing with 1-2 weeks notice, no questions asked.

ThePhysicist 3y ago

Once you reach a certain size it's quite complicated to let people go, if you need to fire a large amount of people you need to e.g. work out a social plan, you can't fire performance-based unless people grossly neglect their job responsibilities. For smaller companies with less than a few hundred employees it's easier of course, but once you're in unionized territory firing becomes a process that the management needs to work out with the employee board.

sausagefeet 3y ago

It is factually true that a company can come to you and claim you are fired and have to leave, however it is illegal. One does not need to be quick with a lawyer. If you are a developer in Sweden, and you have joined the Swedish software engineering union, they will provide you legal support to ensure that you get what the law guarantees you. During the big layoffs this year, they actually waved any prereqs for how long you had to pay dues in the Union to get legal support. The layoffs in Sweden required the company to negotiate with employees for how much money they would accept to leave, in many cases this severance was full salary for a year. I live in Netherlands now and it's the same thing. Yes, a company will make it hard on you but they have no legal status here and will 100% lose going to court. Yes, not everyone has the courage to stand up to their employer, and it may take some time for the legal process to work itself out, and it can be stressful. But the guarantees are there. For myself, as an American who moved to Europe and has stayed, I found my quality of life much better. The reduction in pay has not bothered me one bit.

sensanaty 3y ago

At least in the Netherlands it's extremely difficult to fire someone (which is a good thing). Unless they do something straight up illegal or are proven to be extremely incompetent, the only way to get rid of someone is to wait out their contract, assuming they don't have an unlimited contract. And if they're on the works council (mandatory in any company with at least 50 employees, with more seats the higher the number of employees), it's even more difficult to fire them without a very long, well-kept chain of proof for their incompetency. The employer can always negotiate with the employee if they want them gone sooner, but that's still going to be expensive for the employer, and the worker in this case has much more robust rights than the employer. If my company wanted me gone I could easily get a year's salary out of it with any decent lawyer, as I have a permanent contract. > If the HR and management want one out, one is out. Definitely not in the Netherlands, and I expect most EU countries are similar. > Is is worth the massive paycut the Europeans are accepting? I don't earn anywhere near the 600k number that I see flying around in this thread and elsewhere on HN (which is lunacy to me but more power to you guys), but I'm still better off than 99% of people I meet, have my own home, have actual usable public transport and don't have to worry about a hospital visit bankrupting me. Oh, and my employer can't arbitrarily decide to just fire me, and if they do (for example in a wave of layoffs) I get compensated generously for it, plus the gov't itself will compensate me as well if I can't find a job for whatever reason while having 35 paid vacation days (I think the legal minimum is 25 vacation days for a fulltime employee, not 100% sure on that number though) + 10 or so public holidays. So, yes, definitely worth the pay cut. There's more to life than gross monetary amounts, and from the horror stories my USA-ian friends relay to me about living there, I consider myself quite privileged to be where I'm at.

_heimdall 3y ago
> At least in the Netherlands it's extremely difficult to fire someone (which is a good thing). In your experience, has this led to more careful hiring? One big downside I've seen at some companies in the US is that its so easy to fire someone that companies can tend to hire whoever walks in the door. Especially at larger and publicly traded companies, it can often be more important to fill seats and show company growth when times are good and fire by the thousands at the first sign of any economic issues coming ahead. I don't personally mind it being easy for a company to fire someone as long as that situation is clear before accepting a job, but it would be interesting if we have clear examples of better hiring practices when the employee can't be fired easily.
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  Could explain what do you mean by better hiring practices. I think it is widely known that 4 rounds of interviews are not enough to judge someone, but it is not known if there exists a better practice apart from only hiring connections and time taking proctored take home project, which both have their fair share of problems.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    That's actually what I'd be interested to learn. Presumably if a company can't fire someone easily they would have been motivated to find better predictors of future job success than a few short interviews. Anecdotally I've seen companies skip even that process and hire anyone who seems even slightly qualified. The bar for "better hiring practices" is pretty low for me when the examples I've seen over 20 years in tech are either hire anyone to fill seats or throw obscure logic problems at candidates assuming that maps well to the role being hired for.
    - oblio 3y ago
      Trial periods. In Luxembourg they're 6 months. You can be sent packing with 1-2 weeks notice, no questions asked.