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> It’s about having an orderly society where everyone knows the same rules and adheres to the same culture. It's about discouraging and punishing individualism

> It’s about having an orderly society where everyone knows the same rules and adheres to the same culture. It's about discouraging and punishing individualism which is bonkers.

rayiner 3y ago
That’s a very American viewpoint. I think individualism should be punished. It’s why everything in America that requires social cooperation (public transit, government, etc.) is so shitty. Even just walking down the street—I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > That’s a very American viewpoint. Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history. > I think individualism should be punished.I think individualism should be punished. Individualism allows for innovation and creativity. > I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism. This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan?
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history. Most cultures do not value individualism. It's not even universal to Americans, historically. > Individualism allows for innovation and creativity. So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in. > This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan? No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison. I was raised in Virginia. At least there, at that time, Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      Most cultures absolutely do. Japanese culture is teh exception not the rule. > So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in. Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit. > No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison. That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc. Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities. > Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed. The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > Most cultures absolutely do. Japanese culture is teh exception not the rule. By what measure? Most of the world is African and Asian, and those cultures are not individualistic. > Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit. The Japanese system produces tremendous benefits: an orderly society where everyone behaves according to rules. > That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc. Japan has corruption, wealth disparity, etc., as well. That isn't the thing that makes it different. Every society has those forces. Individualism just makes it harder to build a nice society in spite of them. > Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities. Most western countries aren't as individualistic as America. They're different than Asia, which is based on strong family networks, but it's not the worship of self that prevails in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante. > The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it. I wouldn't hold my breath, given that the world is becoming more religious: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is-faith-growing-and-what-happens-next https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is.... Christianity was the glue holding American society together, and now that's breaking down we are seeing the consequences.
        3y ago
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
If we relied on individualists for everything we would still have no sewage system or water supply. Famously British parliament refused to fund a sewage system until they were tortured with stench for months. Extreme individualism leads to societal collapse. In fact the concept of society means there are some limits on individualism. The other day I saw a bigger toddler kicking a smaller toddler in a museum, with no parents in sight, and no one was willing to intervene until my wife did. People just look at their feet and ignore the issue.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  There's a difference in punishing individual expression and freedom, and ignoring something bad going on. Cultures like Japan's punish people for wanting to veer away from the family expectations/role in any way. It's ridiculous and anachronistic.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Ignoring family expectations and social roles is "something bad." Why do you think you are special, and need to do something different than everyone else does?
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      > Why do you think you are special, and need to do something different than everyone else does? People should be free to follow their desires within reason, not forced into a mold because people were indoctrinated into thinking it was necessary.

> It’s about having an orderly society where everyone knows the same rules and adheres to the same culture. It's about discouraging and punishing individualism which is bonkers.

rayiner 3y ago

That’s a very American viewpoint. I think individualism should be punished. It’s why everything in America that requires social cooperation (public transit, government, etc.) is so shitty. Even just walking down the street—I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
> That’s a very American viewpoint. Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history. > I think individualism should be punished.I think individualism should be punished. Individualism allows for innovation and creativity. > I nearly had a panic attack taking the New York subway the other day because of all the individualism. This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan?
- rayiner 3y ago
  > Not really. It's the viewpoint of most cultures throughout history. Most cultures do not value individualism. It's not even universal to Americans, historically. > Individualism allows for innovation and creativity. So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in. > This is a shame. Were you raised in Japan? No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison. I was raised in Virginia. At least there, at that time, Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Most cultures absolutely do. Japanese culture is teh exception not the rule. > So what? It doesn't allow for an orderly society that's pleasant to live in. Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit. > No, just a tourist who has eyes and can see what shit holes American cities are in comparison. That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc. Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities. > Christianity still functioned as a check on American individualism. Unfortunately that has collapsed. The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > Most cultures absolutely do. Japanese culture is teh exception not the rule. By what measure? Most of the world is African and Asian, and those cultures are not individualistic. > Of course it does. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Unless you take one of them way too far like the Japanese do, with no discernible benefit. The Japanese system produces tremendous benefits: an orderly society where everyone behaves according to rules. > That's not because of individualism, that's because of corruption, lack of regulation and enforcement, wealth disparity etc. Japan has corruption, wealth disparity, etc., as well. That isn't the thing that makes it different. Every society has those forces. Individualism just makes it harder to build a nice society in spite of them. > Other western countries with the same focus on individualism have very nice and clean cities. Most western countries aren't as individualistic as America. They're different than Asia, which is based on strong family networks, but it's not the worship of self that prevails in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante. > The sooner any and all religions become forgotten, the better we will all be for it. I wouldn't hold my breath, given that the world is becoming more religious: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is-faith-growing-and-what-happens-next https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is.... Christianity was the glue holding American society together, and now that's breaking down we are seeing the consequences.
      - 3y ago

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

If we relied on individualists for everything we would still have no sewage system or water supply. Famously British parliament refused to fund a sewage system until they were tortured with stench for months. Extreme individualism leads to societal collapse. In fact the concept of society means there are some limits on individualism. The other day I saw a bigger toddler kicking a smaller toddler in a museum, with no parents in sight, and no one was willing to intervene until my wife did. People just look at their feet and ignore the issue.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
There's a difference in punishing individual expression and freedom, and ignoring something bad going on. Cultures like Japan's punish people for wanting to veer away from the family expectations/role in any way. It's ridiculous and anachronistic.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Ignoring family expectations and social roles is "something bad." Why do you think you are special, and need to do something different than everyone else does?
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > Why do you think you are special, and need to do something different than everyone else does? People should be free to follow their desires within reason, not forced into a mold because people were indoctrinated into thinking it was necessary.